Looking for some 3a's. Please help

Nick · « **on:** 1 Jan 2005, 09:07 am »

Long time reader, first time poster,

I am wanting to get some 3a's. Ideally I would like some new Dulcet or De Capo's, but I simply can't afford them. I found some used MM Generation II's on Agon and I was wondering how good they would be and what they are worth. Here is the link:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1107783253

I think there is an upgrade available available from 3a to give them "i" status. I am wondering how close these would then be to "i" sound? The woofer is still old and I know the cabinet and dampening changed. Also speaking of woofers how long to they last for, I am sure that these must be getting old.

Really I am wondering how to get into some 3a's for the least amount of coin. I am newly married (2 years) and just bought my first home (6 months ago) so I don't have tons of money. BUT.. I love audio and make allowances for it.

Also, if anyone on here is from Canada and wants to sell some 3a's give me an email (I have money in the bank). I am in BC.

Thanks
Nick

Terry · « **Reply #1 on:** 1 Jan 2005, 05:49 pm »

That strikes me as being a very good price for a pair of MMs. I would not count on being able to upgrade them to "i" status. Check with Divergent Technology on this issue.

Red Dragon Audio · « **Reply #2 on:** 1 Jan 2005, 10:57 pm »

THose are not the MM De Capos that can be upgraded to 'i' status. First off they don't have the phase plugs in the center and the tweeter is an entirely different tweeter. De Capo is Italian for "encore". The MM's were out of production for a while because Daniel Dehay was having problems with his production plant in Spain. So later on down the road he moved production to Canada and in the meantime had improved the MM's. Which is why they are called the MM De Capos (series 'i' has better internal bracing, better caps on the tweeters, no ferrofluid in the tweeter, and better binding posts as well offering maple wood finishes).

The speaker advertised on Audiogon is a second generation MM Series Master; basically it's the first speaker(second generation) that got Reference 3A recognized at CES.

Offer the guy $650 + s/h and see if he bites. YOu won't be disappointed.

Nick · « **Reply #3 on:** 1 Jan 2005, 11:12 pm »

Thanks all,

Sounds like the MM Gen 2 is below were I want to be. I really was only interested in because I thought I could upgrade it to a "i".

My amp is a Blue Circle CS, do you think it would be a good match with 3a? I have never heard of Blue Circle being used with 3a.

Also guys to be perfectly honest I was really trying to find a used Magnepan MG12 or Martin Logan Aerius. The 3a is more of an alternative to a planer speaker. Now don't get me wrong I like 3a, I just love the planer mid range.

How would you guys compare a used pair of Capo's to say some Maggie MMGs, or MG12's.

Cheers,
Nick

Red Dragon Audio · « **Reply #4 on:** 1 Jan 2005, 11:41 pm »

Quote from: Nick

Thanks all,

Sounds like the MM Gen 2 is below were I want to be. I really was only interested in because I thought I could upgrade it to a "i".

My amp is a Blue Circle CS, do you think it would be a good match with 3a? I have never heard of Blue Circle being used with 3a.

Also guys to be perfectly honest I was really trying to find a used Magnepan MG12 or Martin Logan Aerius. The 3a is more of an alternative to a planer speaker. Now don't get me wrong I like 3a, I just love the planer mid range.

How would you guys compare a used pair of Capo's to say some Maggie MMGs, or MG12's.

Cheers,
Nick

Nick don't pass these up. I'd say it's going to sound very similar to the current series but you might want to damp the cabinet a bit more and get better caps on the tweeter. maybe even new tweeters are in order. Reference 3A just uses Seas tweeters that are about $60each.

BlueCircle amps should be a good match with De Capos but you never know until you try. I had the Unison Research UNICO matched up with my 1.6's for a few months and it was a much better match than I had antcipated (it really sounded great...the "get down and dance" factor was highJ).

I have owned MMG's, MG1.6 QR's and MM De Capos. They are quite different speakers but I liked them both for their positive qualities. The de capos were more revealing of some inner details, more dynamic and disappeared well in the room. They are easier to drive and don't require quite as much power to really get jumping. Maggies can use a bit more juice to really come alive.

The 1.6's have a lovely midrange, offer a very full enveloping sound, and I like how ribbons sound. If I had the extra room and cash, i would have kept them. One thing the maggies really need is to go with a true biamped system. That gets rid of the crossover between the amp and speaker drivers. That made the 1.6's so much more revealing and lively.

Depending on what room you have set aside for audio, you might find the Maggies to be more challenging in terms of placement as they are dipoles and the MM's are just basic monitors...pretty easy to set up.

Nick · « **Reply #5 on:** 2 Jan 2005, 01:09 am »

Thanks heavystarch,

You sound like just the person to I need to talk to.
Here is the problem I like both speakers but I am not sure what to do.
I have a room that will work with either so that does not rule one out.

I love all types of music from Classical to hard rock. Really the only thing I don't like is Rap and Country.

I am looking for a speaker that will make me forget about everything and pull me in. I am wanting to hear music first, details and everything else can come second. Which speaker do you think will provide more musical enjoyment?

Thanks
Nick

If you want you can PM your number and I can give you a call. I could probably learn more from you in 15 minutes on the phone that I could with 10 posts back and forth.

Nick · « **Reply #6 on:** 7 Jan 2005, 12:52 am »

Just wondering if anyone here has had a chance to listen to a JM Reynaud speaker and if so what were your impressions of it?

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #7 on:** 7 Jan 2005, 12:55 am »

If you like your speaker boring and super refined, then it's for you!

Michael

Nick · « **Reply #8 on:** 7 Jan 2005, 12:57 am »

Quote from: mcrespo71

If you like your speaker boring and super refined, then it's for you!

Michael

Thats quite a statement. Could you please elaborate.
Thanks.

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #9 on:** 7 Jan 2005, 01:03 am »

Too refined and lightweight sounding for me- I heard the Trente's and was not moved. A speaker needs some personality, humour (to quote a good friend), visceral impact, and expressiveness to keep my interest. It was just too reserved and polite, but I'm sure a lot of the audio wimps like em (i.e., those that listen only to Chesky or Sheffield Lab). If you are attracted to what Reynauds do well, which is refinement and excelling on solo acoustic pieces, then go for them. Every piece of gear is a compromise, but I thought the Trente's were just too much of a speaker for girlie men.

Michael

Nick · « **Reply #10 on:** 7 Jan 2005, 01:08 am »

Wow mcrespo71,

I respect your opinion and I don't want to say is not true because I have never heard them before. But every thing that I have read on them suggested that they are less resolving than a 3a, but have more emotion to them.

Would you mind if I asked what equipment you listened to them with?

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #11 on:** 7 Jan 2005, 01:22 am »

More emotion? Doubtful IMO- emotional expressiveness, tone, and insight into musical performance is the only traits in audio equipmentl I listen for now and despite the riidiculous staging and other audioweenie abilities of the MMDCI, they are super engaging- if your ass doesn't move on a good ska record, then you are dead. If I were a pussy, I guess I could even start crying to opera listening to the MMDCI's, but I'm not and I won't. The Reference 3a achilles heel is they are way tooooooo resolving for the cheap ass electronics people try to use with them. I still have problems controlling them and I use about 6.5K of tubes in front of them. Stay away from Refernece 3a unless your front end and electronics are up to snuff because I've heard them with a Unison Research Unico, Cairn integrated, and Plinius integrateds and it just doesn't cut it for this speaker IMO. Something steely comes in eventually that just isn't pleasant. The Plinius was actually quite excellent, but I detected something slightly mechanical sounding from the mating after many hours of listening.

JM Reynaud's are way more forgiving and will partner with lesser electronics. I heard the Trente's with a Pathos integrated and I can't recall the CD player, but I hated them. If you are strapped for cash, I've heard the cheapie JM Reynaud twin is pretty good, but never heard it. There is a cult that follows JM Reynaud, so take their opinions and mine, for that matter, with a grain of salt. I unequivocally will tell you I hate the Trente's and if you want that sound, but done far better, look at Harbeth.

Michael

Nick · « **Reply #12 on:** 7 Jan 2005, 01:38 am »

Thanks mcrespo71,

You are giving me just the kind of brutally honest answers I am looking for. Some people seem afraid to give their honest opinion.

My amp is a Blue Circle CS (Will eventually move to BC separates) and my CD player is a Rega Planet 2000 (probably will move towards wadia).

They speakers I would probably get would be the dulcets. I was also considering the JMR Twin Mk 3.5. Given my electronics what do you think. I listen to everything and am after a close intimate feel. I want it to feel like I am in the same room as the performer/band.

Thanks
Nick

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #13 on:** 7 Jan 2005, 02:04 am »

A good friend of mine, PHILNYC, is a dealer of Blue Circle, but I can honestly say it is very good stuff- extremely well balanced, though nothing really sticks out as being any more important than anything else when you listen to it. It's just solid stuff and doesn't butcher attack and timing like so many other tube electronics do- BC, VTL, Atmasphere, and Art Audio are the best tube amps I've heard for this. Lamm or Cary, bless their liquid hearts, couldn't run a rhythmic line through a paper bag. I've not heard the Blue Circle integrated, but I think Phil has one. You can ask him about JM Reynaud and Reference 3a, as I think he has heard both. If you move into the separates of BC- the hybrid ones- I think they would work with a Dulcet fine, but I'd still go for a fully tube design personally. I think an Atmasphere S-30 would be a perfect amp for the MMDCI or Dulcet- the design philosophies are the same- no crossover in the speaker/no output transformer in the amp- super direct sound. Art Audio would also be killer- if I were to do it again, I'd look at these. Also, unless you have a really small room, I'd save your $ and get the MMDCI- I think it's the sweet spot in the line. I found the Royal Virtuoso's more sweet/extended/resolving, but not worth the extra $ to me. The Dulcet's were more ragged sounding to me- even with ASL SET stuff on them.

The Rega you have is cohesive as hell, times like a swiss watch, and embaresses some really expensive gear for musical engagement. It does soundstaging OK, has OK tonal color, but can sound dry- but you'll play air guitar to it, which you won't for others and for me, that matters most, if you want to map out the soundstage, others do it better, but that's not really music, that's spatial artificats/characteristics, which are cool, but don't really matter that much to me.

Wadia- super high resolution CD players. Haven't heard them in too long to comment, but I remeber thinking they sounded good when I was a neophyte.

Honestly, as a stop gap solution speaker, the Twin may be good. The Dulcet and MMDCI require a commitment many aren't willing to make.

BTW, I also listen to everything- but I've lately been on a steady diet of the Stones from Let it Bleed to Exile on Main Street, so I'm ready to shoot up some heroin now- just kidding. If I broke it down exactly- prolly 70% rock/r&B/rap: 20% classical: 10% jazz. Diana Krall- 0%

Michael

Rocket · « **Reply #14 on:** 7 Jan 2005, 05:15 am »

Hi Nick,

It looks like you are getting some good advice regarding speaker options. You should, however, listen to any speaker in your own system before you buy.

Unless of course you buy secondhand and feel confident enough that you won't lose too much on the deal.

Regards

Rocket

Rocket · « **Reply #15 on:** 7 Jan 2005, 05:17 am »

Hi Nick,

It looks like you are getting some good advice regarding speaker options. You should, however, listen to any speaker in your own system before you buy.

Unless of course you buy secondhand and feel confident enough that you won't lose too much on the deal.

Btw mcrespo71 are they the abkco recordings of the stones ?

Regards

Rocket

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #16 on:** 7 Jan 2005, 06:18 am »

Rocket,

Some Decca Lp's, Virgin LP's, and the Abko SACD's of the stones. Good stuff- I love a band with swagger and attitude and, man, the Stones around Exile had some serious swagger. Killer album.

Michael

Rocket · « **Reply #17 on:** 7 Jan 2005, 06:32 am »

Hi Michael,

I have bought 4 rolling stones (abkco), 1 x Animals (abkco) and i have been really impressed with the sound quality considering how long ago they were recorded.

Regards

Rod

Vikram · « **Reply #18 on:** 7 Jan 2005, 08:38 am »

I am very familiar with BC electronics. I really like the stuff. It is very clear, direct, has wonderful PRAT and yet still sounds correct tonally. I would use the same adjectives to describe the 3a's as well though. Combine the two and unfortunately you don't double up on th good qualities but rather get forced, strained, and possibly even bright.

The de Capo's are not a perfect speaker but among the best I have heard at or even above their price. I post at the BC forum all the time and PhilNYC is a great resource of knowledge re: the BC product range. If you want to stay with the BC gear I say go with the JM Reynaud gear. I have never heard it unfortunately so I can't offer you details but I like what I read. It's efficient, dynamic, and when combined with BC ear (the integrated of the separates) it is really very good tonally. Ears I trust (Bob Neill in particular, who does sell both BC and JMR among other lines) like the combo a great deal.

I love my de capo's but with BC gear they would have been far too forward for my and from what I read, your tastes as well.

Best of luck on your search and enjoy the journey!
Best,
Vik

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #19 on:** 9 Jan 2005, 08:23 am »

Quote from: Rocket

Hi Michael,

I have bought 4 rolling stones (abkco), 1 x Animals (abkco) and i have been really impressed with the sound quality considering how long ago they were recorded.

Regards

Rod

I don't know- ever since digital came along it seems like recordings have gotten worse. Stones LP's from the 60-70s are pretty good and I, too, was very impressed with the SACD/CD remasters. The Dylan SACD/CD remasters are good as well. Hell, some of the best stuff I have are mono Jazz records and the Beatles LP's in mono sound better to me then their stereo counterparts. Ah, all analog recordings- where did you go?

Thankfully, the Stones/Dylan catalogs got reissued properly. Why dip shits waste their time recording banal, though technically talented, jazz artists on these audiophile labels is beyond me. Really, who the hell remembers Lincoln Mayogara now after those ridiculous Sheffield Lab LP's he recorded in the 70s? Preserve and dump the $ in the classics is my opinion. I'd personally rather listen to Bruce Springsteen's Born to Run on a crappy table top radio then listening to some cheeseballs like 3 Blind Mice on the best audio system in the world.

If it's all about the music, why do audiophiles still buy such absolutely banal sonic crap? I've got Jazz at the Pawnshop, so I'm not immune to crap, but I'm not really proud of it. Thankfully, I've kept this crap to a minimum.
Michael