Bryston SP4

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gbaby

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Re: Bryston SP4
« Reply #480 on: 7 Apr 2021, 06:18 pm »

The Sony A9G, that's a prior year OLED isn't it? If so it's 4k, not 8k and the gaming features on it are gimped to say the least with it not being HDMI 2.1 so for you at the moment HDMI 2.1 is irrelevant. Even the new Sony's this year are a joke for HDMI 2.1 implementation as they only have 2 inputs, one of which is eArc so any gamer having more than 1 gaming source has to manually unplug one gaming device and plug in another if they are taking advantage of eArch for any streaming services built into the tv. Also Sony has yet to implement VRR. But again, coming back to the Bryston situation, Sony, unlike LG and Samsung do not make their own HDMI boards and are at the mercy of the features built into the boards they do purchase, for Sony I believe it's mediatek and there is no guarantee Mediatek will ever be able to iron out the VR issues.

The A9G is a 2019 model that I purchased the August 2020. I could have purchased a Sony OLED 2.1 television, but I opted for the A9G for its aesthetics alone in that its stand is flush to the table its on. Plus, I don't plan on getting an 8k TV anytime soon as this is what HDMI 2.1 was designed for primarily. Also, even if I was into gaming, the A9G is fine with its HDMI 2.0b as the PS-5 was designed so that 4k @ 60fps can play through it and the Sony A9G can play 4k@60fps but not @120 fps which I don't think there are any videos for that frame rate.

Rod_S

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Re: Bryston SP4
« Reply #481 on: 7 Apr 2021, 07:01 pm »
As you are a non gamer and even if you were a casual gamer you made a good purchase. Only the discerning more hard core gamers would be after 4k120, VRR, etc. There are many games that support 4k120, particularly on PC. The Xbox Series X and PS5 although offer 120Hz on some games, the graphics take a hit knocking what would be a 4k120 game to 1440@120 or less in order to hit 120fps.

gbaby

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Re: Bryston SP4
« Reply #482 on: 8 Apr 2021, 02:41 pm »
As you are a non gamer and even if you were a casual gamer you made a good purchase. Only the discerning more hard core gamers would be after 4k120, VRR, etc. There are many games that support 4k120, particularly on PC. The Xbox Series X and PS5 although offer 120Hz on some games, the graphics take a hit knocking what would be a 4k120 game to 1440@120 or less in order to hit 120fps.

Thanks Rod. I hate to admit it but I have been watching more television, especially youTube, than listening to music since I purchased the 65A9G.  :oops:

Alphonse

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Re: Bryston SP4
« Reply #483 on: 3 Nov 2021, 04:02 pm »
James or Gary, any new news on SP4 upgrades (HDMI or ???), or any other new collaboration work with Storm Audio? I just noticed that Storm Audio has released the new ISP Core 16 at $11,999 US.

Thanks,  Al

Current 3.0 system - Bryston SP3, Bryston PowerPac 300 x 3, Dynaudio Confidence 5 pair, Dynaudio Excite x28 center, Apple TV 4K, ancient 1080p Samsung TV.

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston SP4
« Reply #484 on: 3 Nov 2021, 09:16 pm »
James or Gary, any new news on SP4 upgrades (HDMI or ???), or any other new collaboration work with Storm Audio? I just noticed that Storm Audio has released the new ISP Core 16 at $11,999 US.

Thanks,  Al

Current 3.0 system - Bryston SP3, Bryston PowerPac 300 x 3, Dynaudio Confidence 5 pair, Dynaudio Excite x28 center, Apple TV 4K, ancient 1080p Samsung TV.

Hi

No I am sorry Storm has not contacted us with any thoughts moving forward.

james

Rod_S

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Re: Bryston SP4
« Reply #485 on: 4 Nov 2021, 12:56 pm »
Could that possibly be because you don't offer a model based on their current product? i.e. ISP MK2 equivalent

Or that I don't believe you offered the upgrade option for the MK1 (i.e. SP4) to bring it up to what they called the MK1.5?

To me it seems that if you weren't keeping lock step with their ongoing hardware and software upgrades they wouldn't set aside resources to continue to support a more legacy type product because I believe like Bryston they are a rather small company vs say the giants like Denon, Yamaha, etc.

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston SP4
« Reply #486 on: 4 Nov 2021, 02:34 pm »
Could that possibly be because you don't offer a model based on their current product? i.e. ISP MK2 equivalent

Or that I don't believe you offered the upgrade option for the MK1 (i.e. SP4) to bring it up to what they called the MK1.5?

To me it seems that if you weren't keeping lock step with their ongoing hardware and software upgrades they wouldn't set aside resources to continue to support a more legacy type product because I believe like Bryston they are a rather small company vs say the giants like Denon, Yamaha, etc.

Hi Rod

I think they feel that they would loose sales to us from their own brand if we had the most current feature sets of their units.

james

Alphonse

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Re: Bryston SP4
« Reply #487 on: 5 Nov 2021, 06:26 pm »
All due respect, but without a guarantee of ongoing support/upgrade path why would anyone buy an SP4 new or used?

Al

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston SP4
« Reply #488 on: 5 Nov 2021, 07:40 pm »
All due respect, but without a guarantee of ongoing support/upgrade path why would anyone buy an SP4 new or used?

Al

I think they will support the current units in the field.

james

Rod_S

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Re: Bryston SP4
« Reply #489 on: 10 Nov 2021, 12:23 pm »
So with clearly no interest from Storm in pulling Bryston forward and at some point the inevitable is going to happen, they will no longer support the MK1 platform, do you foresee the discontinuation of the SP4 in the near or not to distant future?

Have you given any thought of partnering with Trinnov? JBL Synthesis has been one of their partners for years now and I believe Trinnov sees that the JBL units receive the latest updates and also Trinnov allows JBL to run their own proprietary EQ software so like you had been hoping to do with the SP4 eventually and add in your own DAC section Trinnov may be a much better fit for Bryston as your player in the high-end home theater market who allow you to make your own tweaks to the unit.

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston SP4
« Reply #490 on: 10 Nov 2021, 01:25 pm »
So with clearly no interest from Storm in pulling Bryston forward and at some point the inevitable is going to happen, they will no longer support the MK1 platform, do you foresee the discontinuation of the SP4 in the near or not to distant future?

Have you given any thought of partnering with Trinnov? JBL Synthesis has been one of their partners for years now and I believe Trinnov sees that the JBL units receive the latest updates and also Trinnov allows JBL to run their own proprietary EQ software so like you had been hoping to do with the SP4 eventually and add in your own DAC section Trinnov may be a much better fit for Bryston as your player in the high-end home theater market who allow you to make your own tweaks to the unit.

Hi Rod

Yes certainly something to consider given no response from Storm

james

gbaby

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Re: Bryston SP4
« Reply #491 on: 30 Nov 2021, 09:03 pm »
I say get an SP3 and be done with it. I still think Atmos is more hype than anything as folks do not hear object base in real life. Besides, Atmos is already in the embryonic stage of being replaced by Imax Enhanced. I stopped chasing codecs with the SP3. From this I have added the BDP/BDA3 and the BP2 mm/mc phone preamp. 

Rod_S

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Re: Bryston SP4
« Reply #492 on: 1 Dec 2021, 12:58 am »
To each their own I guess. For me there is no comparing object based surround using height channels and at least 7 bed channels to simply 7 bed channels, what object based delivers is just so far beyond standard bed channels it's incredible and I was a definite skeptic before I heard it done right. And done right means true height speakers and bed speakers in proper setup and alignment and none of the gimmicky sound bars that "do surround" :) or speakers with upfiring drivers built into their tops. Those approaches are complete garbage in my opinion when compared to a proper setup but if space and budget are the constraints they are better than nothin but in that case I would recommend just a good ole proper 5.1 setup.

One could argue the same for anymore using 2 channel matrixing of music as well to expand to 5 or 7 channels as being unnatural and a waste of money so that argument applies to the SP3 for what it can do with 2 channel sources. It just comes down to personal choice

Imax enhanced will not replace Atmos, Imax enhanced is basically dts:X because it exists within dts:X container so at best IMax enhanced will live along side dts: X and Dolby Atmos with Dolby Atmos continuing to reign supreme due to wide spread adoption during the age of 4K Blu-ray's.

gbaby

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Re: Bryston SP4
« Reply #493 on: 4 Dec 2021, 06:33 pm »
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gbaby

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Re: Bryston SP4
« Reply #494 on: 4 Dec 2021, 06:36 pm »

Hello Rod. I agree, to each his own. But, ask yourself, when is the last time you have heard "object based" in the real world? For me, never. Everything I hear is in the horizontal plane. Even if an airplane or helicopter flies above, the sound is low frequency and omnipresent. I live near Cherry Point Marine Air Station, so I am quite familiar with airplane and helicopter noise. Even with rain, you don't hear it until it hits the ground. I heard ATMOS done "right" in a high end audio store, and I was not impressed with the "bubble of sound" and I thought it sounded gimmicky as if I was in some sound chamber. ATMOS does not mimmic reality. If I had to speculate, I feel Dolby came up with ATMOS to compete with the better sounding codec, DTS. To me, a high end processor like the SP3 with superior electronics, and the right rear speakers, make ATMOS unnecessary.

NekoAudio

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Re: Bryston SP4
« Reply #495 on: 4 Dec 2021, 08:52 pm »
Hello Rod. I agree, to each his own. But, ask yourself, when is the last time you have heard "object based" in the real world? For me, never. Everything I hear is in the horizontal plane. Even if an airplane or helicopter flies above, the sound is low frequency and omnipresent.
That sounds very odd to me. You should be able to localize when a sound is coming from above you or below you. That's the way our brain interprets the way sound waves change as they hit our auricle (the outside fleshy part of your ear) and then travel in, added to the time differential between your two ears. When you hear an airplane or helicopter fly above do you actually hear it as if it is flying past you down at ground level? Personally I hear all sound as "object based" in the real world.

Also, even with all your speakers in the horizontal plane, object-based sound encoding still applies. For example if you have your left main speaker at 30° off your directly-facing axis, and your left surround at 15° off your left-facing axis (i.e. to the left of your seat but also a little bit behind). But the sound engineer based the mix off the left surround being 0° off your left-facing axis (i.e. directly to the left of your seat). By remapping the sound to use both your left main and left surround speaker, with the appropriate changes in timing, the sound will properly localize to directly left of your seat. Without object-based encoding and remapping, the sound will instead come from only the left surround and be incorrectly positioned a little behind you.

Probably the most valid test of this is video gaming in a surround sound setup, with or without overhead/height speakers. Since the sound effects are artificially generated based on the exact position of other objects, players, and enemies in the game, proper localization allows you to immediately identify the location and react by accurately and precisely turning your "head" in the game to the place the sound was created. This is obviously a significant advantage in some games, so gamers will invest in good sound for this reason. If you haven't experienced this yourself, or you're not a gamer, you can still see this if you watch some YouTube or Twitch videos that show this happening. There was a recent brouhaha over one player who some people thought was cheating because he knew exactly where some other players were, but the final consensus was that he was just precisely locating them from the game sounds.

In some setups, Atmos may sound strange or a bit off-sounding. There are, for example, Atmos-enabled laptop speakers. It can make a big difference in the presentation (and I would argue accuracy) of the soundstage presented by the laptop speakers, but it can also sound very strange because it's not at all what one is expecting from laptop speakers. One of those things you'd need to get used to. Also, Atmos can sound strange if the processor doesn't have the correct knowledge of the speaker locations (assuming the room acoustics are not a significant issue, and the speakers are timbre-matched) because then the mapping can be incorrect. For processors that don't localize the speakers, you do need to approximate a speaker position standard which the processor then assumes you are using.

In my experience, Atmos does get you closer to the actual sound of reality, the same way surround speakers do over 2-channel. And should allow the sound engineers to worry less about what an end user's speaker setup and arrangement might be, and only worry about where sounds should be located. If you want to hear a guaranteed correct deployment of Atmos, a Dolby Atmos theater run by Dolby would do that. It could be there isn't one near to you or available to you though. Visiting an Atmos theater run by one of the cinema chains may be more of a hit-or-miss proposition.

gbaby

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Re: Bryston SP4
« Reply #496 on: 8 Dec 2021, 03:38 pm »
That sounds very odd to me. You should be able to localize when a sound is coming from above you or below you. That's the way our brain interprets the way sound waves change as they hit our auricle (the outside fleshy part of your ear) and then travel in, added to the time differential between your two ears. When you hear an airplane or helicopter fly above do you actually hear it as if it is flying past you down at ground level? Personally I hear all sound as "object based" in the real world.

Also, even with all your speakers in the horizontal plane, object-based sound encoding still applies. For example if you have your left main speaker at 30° off your directly-facing axis, and your left surround at 15° off your left-facing axis (i.e. to the left of your seat but also a little bit behind). But the sound engineer based the mix off the left surround being 0° off your left-facing axis (i.e. directly to the left of your seat). By remapping the sound to use both your left main and left surround speaker, with the appropriate changes in timing, the sound will properly localize to directly left of your seat. Without object-based encoding and remapping, the sound will instead come from only the left surround and be incorrectly positioned a little behind you.

Probably the most valid test of this is video gaming in a surround sound setup, with or without overhead/height speakers. Since the sound effects are artificially generated based on the exact position of other objects, players, and enemies in the game, proper localization allows you to immediately identify the location and react by accurately and precisely turning your "head" in the game to the place the sound was created. This is obviously a significant advantage in some games, so gamers will invest in good sound for this reason. If you haven't experienced this yourself, or you're not a gamer, you can still see this if you watch some YouTube or Twitch videos that show this happening. There was a recent brouhaha over one player who some people thought was cheating because he knew exactly where some other players were, but the final consensus was that he was just precisely locating them from the game sounds.

In some setups, Atmos may sound strange or a bit off-sounding. There are, for example, Atmos-enabled laptop speakers. It can make a big difference in the presentation (and I would argue accuracy) of the soundstage presented by the laptop speakers, but it can also sound very strange because it's not at all what one is expecting from laptop speakers. One of those things you'd need to get used to. Also, Atmos can sound strange if the processor doesn't have the correct knowledge of the speaker locations (assuming the room acoustics are not a significant issue, and the speakers are timbre-matched) because then the mapping can be incorrect. For processors that don't localize the speakers, you do need to approximate a speaker position standard which the processor then assumes you are using.

In my experience, Atmos does get you closer to the actual sound of reality, the same way surround speakers do over 2-channel. And should allow the sound engineers to worry less about what an end user's speaker setup and arrangement might be, and only worry about where sounds should be located. If you want to hear a guaranteed correct deployment of Atmos, a Dolby Atmos theater run by Dolby would do that. It could be there isn't one near to you or available to you though. Visiting an Atmos theater run by one of the cinema chains may be more of a hit-or-miss proposition.

If I spent the time, money and effort to get Atmess in my home theater, I'd defend it too, I guess. I use to work in the audio industry as a salesman so I know a gimmick when I hear it. Your comments to me reads as if you are trying to convince yourself you are hearing a realistic sound. But, the argument is unconvincing to me whether its in a theater of home. Sorry.  :nono: I will stick with my 7.1 SP3 delivering superior fidelity.  8)

Rod_S

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Re: Bryston SP4
« Reply #497 on: 9 Dec 2021, 02:40 am »
Hello Rod. I agree, to each his own. But, ask yourself, when is the last time you have heard "object based" in the real world? For me, never. Everything I hear is in the horizontal plane. Even if an airplane or helicopter flies above, the sound is low frequency and omnipresent. I live near Cherry Point Marine Air Station, so I am quite familiar with airplane and helicopter noise. Even with rain, you don't hear it until it hits the ground. I heard ATMOS done "right" in a high end audio store, and I was not impressed with the "bubble of sound" and I thought it sounded gimmicky as if I was in some sound chamber. ATMOS does not mimmic reality. If I had to speculate, I feel Dolby came up with ATMOS to compete with the better sounding codec, DTS. To me, a high end processor like the SP3 with superior electronics, and the right rear speakers, make ATMOS unnecessary.

Hi,

Let's face it, everything we are hearing out of our speakers is artificial i.e. the actual object is not there nor is it in the original source location or environment. But what you are saying about airplanes and helicopters makes no sense. We can't change where our ears are located on the sides of our heads but that has nothing to do with the actual source of the sound, so the sound from the object i.e. an airplane or helicopter originates from the vehicle, in the air if it's flying or on the ground it's it's just that, on the ground. So the sound travels from the source. Similar to birds, primates or leaves rustling all up in trees for example, it's all originating from above in the real world. If the ATMOS, or dts:X or Auro 3D mix is done right and you have your system crossovers setup appropriately you would be getting the low frequency coming at you from the horizontal plane like you talk about, be that from the subs, or lower frequencies of the bed channel speakers while the mid and higher frequencies are across the height spectrum from horizontal up to the heights where they originate from and passing around you following the object from on the screen to off the screen in a simulated environment. Since height speakers are never going to be capable of any real ultra low frequency extension with authority, well not any that we can accommodate in our homes the true lower frequencies will always be coming from the bed channels even if the mix is done full range across the board for all objects because our crossovers will properly redirect that low end.

If the mix is not good and the volume level is all out of wack for the object in question then yeah it's going to sound like garbage and a gimmick really fast for sure drawing all your attention.

gbaby

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Re: Bryston SP4
« Reply #498 on: 9 Dec 2021, 04:55 pm »
Hi,

Let's face it, everything we are hearing out of our speakers is artificial i.e. the actual object is not there nor is it in the original source location or environment. But what you are saying about airplanes and helicopters makes no sense. We can't change where our ears are located on the sides of our heads but that has nothing to do with the actual source of the sound, so the sound from the object i.e. an airplane or helicopter originates from the vehicle, in the air if it's flying or on the ground it's it's just that, on the ground. So the sound travels from the source. Similar to birds, primates or leaves rustling all up in trees for example, it's all originating from above in the real world. If the ATMOS, or dts:X or Auro 3D mix is done right and you have your system crossovers setup appropriately you would be getting the low frequency coming at you from the horizontal plane like you talk about, be that from the subs, or lower frequencies of the bed channel speakers while the mid and higher frequencies are across the height spectrum from horizontal up to the heights where they originate from and passing around you following the object from on the screen to off the screen in a simulated environment. Since height speakers are never going to be capable of any real ultra low frequency extension with authority, well not any that we can accommodate in our homes the true lower frequencies will always be coming from the bed channels even if the mix is done full range across the board for all objects because our crossovers will properly redirect that low end.

If the mix is not good and the volume level is all out of wack for the object in question then yeah it's going to sound like garbage and a gimmick really fast for sure drawing all your attention.

Hey Rod. What I am saying does make sense when you consider airplane and helicopter noise is low frequency which is non-directional and omnipresent. I don't know the physics behind it, but when planes and helicopters fly over my home, the low frequency noise is 360 degrees and you cannot tell where it is coming from. Additionally, I have been to many air shows and I have the same experience. The plane is in the air, but the sound is everywhere. In fact, I have a plethora of movies made in 7.1 with airplane and helicopter scenes and the plane or helicopter flies overhead and pans from front to rear quite effectively without the use of Atmess which is fundamentally marketing hype in my opinion. Again, my SP3 is just fine. :)