Sound meaning

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Tyson

Re: Sound meaning
« Reply #60 on: 2 Feb 2018, 05:05 pm »
Well I would recommend hitting some shows or joining a local audio society.  And never buy anything you can’t demo at home and return.  My ‘rules’ above are just some generalities I’ve picked up over the years.  The hard reality is that there’s tremendous variation from manufacturer to manufacturer.  Hell, even within different options from the same manufacturer!  Truly great equipment is rare and also subject to personal preferences.  What I find great, others won’t.

That is what was so eye opening for me when Jason and I did live show coverage at RMAF - we both were very experinced audiophiles and even using the same music in the same room, we often disagreed on how a room sounded!  In fact we disagreed more than we agreed!

My advice is to ignore price, ignore specs and ignore ‘buzz’ and just listen.  Some gear will surprise you with how good it sounds.  Most gear, though, will dissapoint you with how mediocre it is.  Just don’t fall into the trap of trying to ‘reason’ yourself into liking gear based on design or specs or other preconcieved ideas.  That is the road to heartbreak.  Rather: listen listen listen!  And do it with a skeptical, “I’ll believe when I hear it” mindset and you’ll end up with a very satisfying system.

Oh, and start with speakers.  Once you have a pair of speakers that you truly love the sound of, the rest of the gear becomes merely flavoring to hone the final sound. 

arro222

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Re: Sound meaning
« Reply #61 on: 2 Feb 2018, 06:16 pm »
Well I would recommend hitting some shows or joining a local audio society.  And never buy anything you can’t demo at home and return.  My ‘rules’ above are just some generalities I’ve picked up over the years.  The hard reality is that there’s tremendous variation from manufacturer to manufacturer.  Hell, even within different options from the same manufacturer!  Truly great equipment is rare and also subject to personal preferences.  What I find great, others won’t.

That is what was so eye opening for me when Jason and I did live show coverage at RMAF - we both were very experinced audiophiles and even using the same music in the same room, we often disagreed on how a room sounded!  In fact we disagreed more than we agreed!

My advice is to ignore price, ignore specs and ignore ‘buzz’ and just listen.  Some gear will surprise you with how good it sounds.  Most gear, though, will dissapoint you with how mediocre it is.  Just don’t fall into the trap of trying to ‘reason’ yourself into liking gear based on design or specs or other preconcieved ideas.  That is the road to heartbreak.  Rather: listen listen listen!  And do it with a skeptical, “I’ll believe when I hear it” mindset and you’ll end up with a very satisfying system.

Oh, and start with speakers.  Once you have a pair of speakers that you truly love the sound of, the rest of the gear becomes merely flavoring to hone the final sound.

And there in lies the problem. I heard what sounded great to me and I simply cannot stretch to its purchase because of cost. All I can do is attempt to acquire a percentage in my audio microcosm existence.
I am a "once I experience it I'll know it" type of guy.
The part that amazes me is in my attempt to reach "objectivity" in a forum such as this, I thought to hone down to the lowest common denominator which I thought was: "does this stuff sound real". Not only are there variations in that notice amongst people, but there are others who simply do not want "real" and prefer "beautiful".  I'm fine with that and more power to whoever wants whatever they want.
I came here to see if there was anyone who has the same audio desires as myself and perhaps narrow it down some.

Amongst the varying contributions no matter what the flavor, it all goes into the "thought bank". Perhaps vaporous in its existence at first, it all  becomes more solid as thoughts congeal with various posters contributing
The myriad of availability is mind boggling.

The simple answer here? 1. I bought Proacs because they were the best thing I heard to me so I have part of the equation. 2. I should get ARC stuff and try it here as these components were the best fit for my hearing preferences. 3. So what that you (meaning me) cannot buy $35K of their pre and amp. At least buy a piece of it. May hit gold. Who knows. Just try at least.
Thank you and warmest regards.

Tyson

Re: Sound meaning
« Reply #62 on: 2 Feb 2018, 06:23 pm »
You could do what I do and embrace DIY.  There are some tremendously good kits out ther and the cost of admission is much lower.  I built my Pass designed First Watt amp and not only does it kick butt, it also gave me the opportunity to tune the sound to how I preferred it.  Preamp too.  A friend built it, but I was heavily involved in the design decision and the tuning process.  Now I have some of tge best gear on the planet, according to my own preferences and taste.  AC iis also a good DIY resource, too. 

arro222

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Re: Sound meaning
« Reply #63 on: 2 Feb 2018, 07:44 pm »
You could do what I do and embrace DIY.  There are some tremendously good kits out ther and the cost of admission is much lower.  I built my Pass designed First Watt amp and not only does it kick butt, it also gave me the opportunity to tune the sound to how I preferred it.  Preamp too.  A friend built it, but I was heavily involved in the design decision and the tuning process.  Now I have some of tge best gear on the planet, according to my own preferences and taste.  AC iis also a good DIY resource, too.

I could Tyson but I am into so much other crap I'm unsure that I could stretch my brain further. I did consider the Pass Integrated (60 I think) but it would not fit onto my console. All of their stuff seems to be 19" wide which is a wee bit too big. I would need to have them shave off an 1/8" on either side of their heat sinks but they did not seem too enamored with that idea. The utter gaul of them :D

None the less, I will look up your suggestion and see what I can see. Thanks again.

Tyson

Re: Sound meaning
« Reply #64 on: 2 Feb 2018, 07:58 pm »
You could also look at Odyssey gear or DAC amplifiers, both here on AC.  Reasonable price and very good quality.  For a digital source you can’t go wrong with iFi, also here on AC.  For an all-in-one future proof solution, the LIO from Vinnie Rossi is amazingly good and an outstanding value for what you get. 

If you do want to check out diy, the check out the First Watt area on diyaudio.com - they have preamps as well as amps, and you can put them in any case you want.  Or check out the Aikido tube preamp.  Aspen amps are over there now too and they are also great. 

My point is - even on a tight budget, there’s a lot of great options out there!!!

Folsom

Re: Sound meaning
« Reply #65 on: 2 Feb 2018, 08:36 pm »
Well Folsom you peaked my curiosity. I am not agreeing with it and this is why: of course instruments and voices can sound different in differentiated settings and that part is ok with me. Sound stage is secondary for me. As long as whether that instrument or voice can be depicted truthfully no matter where it is or how it's mixed, I'm good. I'm not looking for  timbre as a generality. I'm looking at timbre for whatever the placement, be represented accurately.

Your advice is heartfully appreciated.
Lets say the source is a given and being direct stream, the recording excellent, the player excellent and now the amp.
Let's even say that either tubes or ss, the bass is adequate for me. Will there be any more difference to an excellent source or recording as far as accuracy or to what makes things sound actual using one topology (tubes/ss)  over another?

I'm not sure I understand the question... but I will try.

But I would say that the recording itself is a bigger factor than anything once the stereo is very good. For me any topology has potential, it can be made out of anything. If it sounds right it sounds right. I believe both SS and tubes have pitfalls that manufactures fall into, that end up deriving a sound I don't like largely because it is artificial and strange.



Is there some reason you cannot have a different console?

Early B.

Re: Sound meaning
« Reply #66 on: 2 Feb 2018, 10:46 pm »
My approach to getting good sound is based on four major principles:

1.  Experiment, experiment, experiment! This requires changing out gear often (initially) until you settle on what you want. You can't know what sounds good to you unless it's in your system.

2.  Buy the best gear you can barely afford.

3. Invest in designers, not equipment. For instance, there's tremendous value in purchasing gear from the industry participants on audiocircle who designed it.

4. You need power!  Power management is the foundation of a good audio system. 

arro222

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Re: Sound meaning
« Reply #67 on: 3 Feb 2018, 03:27 am »
I believe both SS and tubes have pitfalls that manufactures fall into, that end up deriving a sound I don't like largely because it is artificial and strange.



Is there some reason you cannot have a different console?

I've had the same feeling. I had an experienced audio guy tell me I need single ended. I've always used push/pull.

As far as the audio cabinet, there is a reason and it's self inflicted. I made the thing as I have made all of my furniture (well, tables anyway) in the living room so kind of attached to it. Made the mistake of making equipment slots 18.5" wide instead of 20" and because it is more of a "cabinet" than a stand shelf,  I can't cut stiles to widen
spaces up.
I also once made the mistake of making a pair of heavy oak stands for the monitors made out of a center beam from a barn around here that dated to mid 1800's. They were gorgeous after I planed and oiled them up as the wood had so much character. Made them sound absolutely dead so I sold them to a guy who wanted to deaden his speakers. I told him I'd take them back if they didn't work out but he loved them. Talk about differentiated tastes.

arro222

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Re: Sound meaning
« Reply #68 on: 3 Feb 2018, 03:31 am »
My approach to getting good sound is based on four major principles:

1.  Experiment, experiment, experiment! This requires changing out gear often (initially) until you settle on what you want. You can't know what sounds good to you unless it's in your system.

2.  Buy the best gear you can barely afford.

3. Invest in designers, not equipment. For instance, there's tremendous value in purchasing gear from the industry participants on audiocircle who designed it.

4. You need power!  Power management is the foundation of a good audio system.

I saw your system. It is unbelievable to me of what some of you guys have. There are equipment names I've never heard of. I spent most of my money on 3 daughters who went to college and were into equestrian eventing up and down the east coast to eventually the wedding costs. What was the sound you were chasing?

FullRangeMan

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Re: Sound meaning
« Reply #69 on: 3 Feb 2018, 03:38 am »
I've had the same feeling. I had an experienced audio guy tell me I need single ended. I've always used push/pull.
If you have a small room you could use a SE amp and a FR single driver with no xover as Omega or Nirvana(DIY) if you have a handy carpenter nearby.

JLM

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Re: Sound meaning
« Reply #70 on: 3 Feb 2018, 11:40 am »
Start with the room (hopefully dedicated, the right shape/size, and acoustically isolated).  Next pick out the speakers that fit the room and suit your tastes.  Then select source(s) to match your lifestyle, physical involvement, range of selections, and likes.  Finally find pre/power amps that serve the above gear best.  Wire, various tweaks, and power conditioners (unless you happen to have severe power aberrations) are all very secondary.

Most way overbuy gear for the given room.  If your room is compromised, so will be your audio experience, period.  Frankly that's why closed headphones were invented (another compromise but an 'honest' and less expensive one).

Recommend keeping your system as simple as possible.  Complexity add complications and cost.  For instance after 40 years this found the value of not having an audio rack.  Even a small rack disrupts the soundstage (I put all my gear on a leftover piece of shelving that is spiked to the floor which is flexible, makes swapping out gear easy, and allows for shorter wires). 

Agree with prioritizing on the vendor/manufacturer before a particular piece of gear and to home audition. 

arro222

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Re: Sound meaning
« Reply #71 on: 3 Feb 2018, 05:21 pm »
Start with the room (hopefully dedicated, the right shape/size, and acoustically isolated).  Next pick out the speakers that fit the room and suit your tastes.  Then select source(s) to match your lifestyle, physical involvement, range of selections, and likes.  Finally find pre/power amps that serve the above gear best.  Wire, various tweaks, and power conditioners (unless you happen to have severe power aberrations) are all very secondary.

Most way overbuy gear for the given room.  If your room is compromised, so will be your audio experience, period.  Frankly that's why closed headphones were invented (another compromise but an 'honest' and less expensive one).

Recommend keeping your system as simple as possible.  Complexity add complications and cost.  For instance after 40 years this found the value of not having an audio rack.  Even a small rack disrupts the soundstage (I put all my gear on a leftover piece of shelving that is spiked to the floor which is flexible, makes swapping out gear easy, and allows for shorter wires). 

Agree with prioritizing on the vendor/manufacturer before a particular piece of gear and to home audition.

All good advice J. Unfortuately, the room is the room. Living in a log home, there are not a lot of sound wave reflections going on. Its a semi heavy room with draperies and logs. I would agree that the room and placement can be everything beyond actual equipment. I have to compromise that whatever is shot out, sounds actual to me. I will never acquire that holographic aspect or be "enveloped" by sound I've heard elsewhere and have to be satisfied with accurate timbres, decays, transients etc. to the best the room can afford.
Thus stated, my circumstance does not deserve or I should say able to take advantage of the best gear. Somewhere in the 90 percentile would be good (who am I kidding).

It is not the first time I've heard there should be nothing between speakers. When I had the Stingray with the Wadia, I put the components off to the side, drilled through the carpeted floor and ran about 15' of Speltz wire in the cellar (mostly because it was so ugly and ornery) and back up through the floor to the speakers with nothing between. The room is simply too dead to take advantage of even this.

So with the help of everyone here, I've come to the conclusion that I think it prudent to stick with my altered Rega II TT, try out the ARC vsi75 through the Proac Studio 100's and save up for an excellent digital source that I have no clue about  beyond slipping in a disc and hearing it.
I saw one guy seemingly play music through his smart phone into top notch 30 yr old gear going out of Proac speakers and it sounded pretty darn good.
Totally ignorant to this type of playback control.

Mag

Re: Sound meaning
« Reply #72 on: 3 Feb 2018, 07:17 pm »
Cannot say for sure but depending on the codec used on smartphone the music is most likely compressed. When music is compressed some degree of harmonics is lost in playback. So if you want realism or live like stay away from streaming and devices that compress the music.

An example of this is a Blu Ray pcm stereo track uncompressed at 48K which is one octave more than Redbook cd. Most cd are compressed, when comparing the compressed cd format to uncompressed Blu Ray the difference in realism is significant.

arro222

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Re: Sound meaning
« Reply #73 on: 4 Feb 2018, 04:23 pm »
Cannot say for sure but depending on the codec used on smartphone the music is most likely compressed. When music is compressed some degree of harmonics is lost in playback. So if you want realism or live like stay away from streaming and devices that compress the music.

An example of this is a Blu Ray pcm stereo track uncompressed at 48K which is one octave more than Redbook cd. Most cd are compressed, when comparing the compressed cd format to uncompressed Blu Ray the difference in realism is significant.

Other than slipping a disc into a player, what are the advantages of "ripping"? Simply to call up music on demand?
If an amp has no provision for modern play-back such as HDMI or whatever "modern" is considered, can any other playback method be carried from the player which has a dac?
I've also been advised to get one of these things: http://www.psaudio.com/products/directstream-dac/
Excuse my ignorance but I still have a flip phone and prefer it that way. BTW, I heard around 5 years ago that the cd disc was going to be dead. This seems to be a long death no?

Tyson

Re: Sound meaning
« Reply #74 on: 4 Feb 2018, 04:38 pm »
A computer allows you to listen to hirez files which cannot be done easily via discs.  You need a good DAC that does the conversion of digital to analog.  There’s tons of good ones.  But it is definitely more complicated than using a cd player.  To me, I am comfortable with computers so the step up in sound quality is definitely worth the step up in complexity.

If you want outstanding quality in a simple and elegant solution, check out the Vinnie Rossi LIO - its outstanding.  Easily the best room at RMAF this past year.  Plus its modular and future proof.  Very, very smart design, Vinnie is one of the few, true, innovators working right now.

arro222

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Re: Sound meaning
« Reply #75 on: 4 Feb 2018, 05:18 pm »
A computer allows you to listen to hirez files which cannot be done easily via discs.  You need a good DAC that does the conversion of digital to analog.  There’s tons of good ones.  But it is definitely more complicated than using a cd player.  To me, I am comfortable with computers so the step up in sound quality is definitely worth the step up in complexity.

If you want outstanding quality in a simple and elegant solution, check out the Vinnie Rossi LIO - its outstanding.  Easily the best room at RMAF this past year.  Plus its modular and future proof.  Very, very smart design, Vinnie is one of the few, true, innovators working right now.

Ok, so I load a cd into a computer or quiet laptop. This is then connected to a dac. If a dac in the cd player already, I assume i can use that?

Here's another thing: Ive heard from more than one person that tubes are more "palpable" to music. I did own a Manley Stingray which is tubed only to discover how remarkably close to solid state this amp was. I heard no more "palpabiliness". Was hoping the ARC vsi75 would give a more organic feel.

I did check out this amp. Other than the phono stage or head phone option, I'm not sure what else I would need in there.

Mag

Re: Sound meaning
« Reply #76 on: 4 Feb 2018, 08:34 pm »
Other than slipping a disc into a player, what are the advantages of "ripping"? Simply to call up music on demand?
If an amp has no provision for modern play-back such as HDMI or whatever "modern" is considered, can any other playback method be carried from the player which has a dac?
I've also been advised to get one of these things: http://www.psaudio.com/products/directstream-dac/
Excuse my ignorance but I still have a flip phone and prefer it that way. BTW, I heard around 5 years ago that the cd disc was going to be dead. This seems to be a long death no?

Not sure I understand the question. I understand the convenience of using digital players and having all my music stored on a jump drive. I actually prefer using a digital player vs cd player, but the compact disc has been given a bad rap, which isn't true.

IME the compact cd is capable of capturing the same sound as the supposedly superior Hi-Rez downloads. What we have gotten from the cd is compressed recordings, which isn't the fault of the medium. Music on a compact disc doesn't have to be compressed and the advantages of being able to copy and record with a cd should not be forgotten by the consumer. Which can't be done easily with vinyl or sacd.

As for the direct stream dac, haven't heard it but believe there is merit to their claim. Still it is not a substitute for uncompressed recordings. :smoke:

arro222

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Re: Sound meaning
« Reply #77 on: 4 Feb 2018, 09:17 pm »
Not sure I understand the question. I understand the convenience of using digital players and having all my music stored on a jump drive. I actually prefer using a digital player vs cd player, but the compact disc has been given a bad rap, which isn't true.

IME the compact cd is capable of capturing the same sound as the supposedly superior Hi-Rez downloads. What we have gotten from the cd is compressed recordings, which isn't the fault of the medium. Music on a compact disc doesn't have to be compressed and the advantages of being able to copy and record with a cd should not be forgotten by the consumer. Which can't be done easily with vinyl or sacd.

As for the direct stream dac, haven't heard it but believe there is merit to their claim. Still it is not a substitute for uncompressed recordings. :smoke:

In order to use a dap, one must first have a digital library of music. If I had to play all of my cd's to gain this "library", I'd be stuck in the house for months. How much fidelity is to be gained seems negligible by your estimation.
What I find unfortunate is that I cannot tell you now many cd's I've purchased simply for liking just one or two songs on that disc. It would be so much easier to simply pay a coupe bucks for songs that I like and play them somehow through my system. I guess this is called "streaming" but I do not think I've talked to one person who thinks streamed music has the kind of fidelity needed to satisfy.
If there were such a gizmo, I'd buy it.

Early B.

Re: Sound meaning
« Reply #78 on: 4 Feb 2018, 09:40 pm »
In order to use a dap, one must first have a digital library of music. If I had to play all of my cd's to gain this "library", I'd be stuck in the house for months. How much fidelity is to be gained seems negligible by your estimation.
What I find unfortunate is that I cannot tell you now many cd's I've purchased simply for liking just one or two songs on that disc. It would be so much easier to simply pay a coupe bucks for songs that I like and play them somehow through my system. I guess this is called "streaming" but I do not think I've talked to one person who thinks streamed music has the kind of fidelity needed to satisfy.
If there were such a gizmo, I'd buy it.

For someone who stills has a flip phone and likes it that way -- forget about going digital right now. Stick with CDs as long as you can. Nothing wrong with that strategy.   

arro222

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Re: Sound meaning
« Reply #79 on: 4 Feb 2018, 09:48 pm »
For someone who stills has a flip phone and likes it that way -- forget about going digital right now. Stick with CDs as long as you can. Nothing wrong with that strategy.

ok. I'll wait another 5 years and see where this goes. By that time cd's will be dead right? (or at least that's what they said 5 years ago). Then again in another 5 years I may be dead as well. As no forebears in my family lived pass 71, I've got a year left.