Best SubWoofer to match M3 S Turbo's ?

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Wind Chaser

Re: Best SubWoofer to match M3 S Turbo's ?
« Reply #20 on: 28 Dec 2017, 11:13 pm »
I thought the Triode Master is supposed to improve the impedance mismatch issue?

Well I guess you could say compared to the M3ts, it does look like an improvement. However there is still a couple of high impedance swings, one in excess of 100Ω ... so yeah, this isn't a SET friendly load.

As you can see from the second chart, my previous speakers did not present what you'd call an ideal load for a SET either, but at least the swings were contained to 19Ω and thus my amp was able to cope with it much better.

By the time I logged my first 100 hours on the Spatial's, it was clear that as much as I loved my SET, it would never mate well with the M3ts. This became so painfully obvious when I substituted a very inexpensive Class D amp for the SET. The cheap chip amp blew the SET out of the water; not merely in low frequency / bass performance ... but before I mention those other attributes, yes I'm talking about a massive off the charts improvement bass, both in quality and quantity. So regardless of whatever gains you think you might make with a better sub, you still have an issue in the midrange that no amount of bass augmentation can fix.


kgturner

Re: Best SubWoofer to match M3 S Turbo's ?
« Reply #21 on: 29 Dec 2017, 12:05 am »
I'm using a pair of Rythmik F12SE with my Spatial M4 Turbos. Seems to mate well enough that I haven't bothered trying any other subs. When I was ordering the subs, I inquired about the F12 vs. F12G, but was steered toward the F12. Speakers are powered by a Line Magnetic LM-518IA.

Kevin T

sumoking

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Re: Best SubWoofer to match M3 S Turbo's ?
« Reply #22 on: 29 Dec 2017, 05:25 am »
Well I guess you could say compared to the M3ts, it does look like an improvement. However there is still a couple of high impedance swings, one in excess of 100Ω ... so yeah, this isn't a SET friendly load.

As you can see from the second chart, my previous speakers did not present what you'd call an ideal load for a SET either, but at least the swings were contained to 19Ω and thus my amp was able to cope with it much better.

By the time I logged my first 100 hours on the Spatial's, it was clear that as much as I loved my SET, it would never mate well with the M3ts. This became so painfully obvious when I substituted a very inexpensive Class D amp for the SET. The cheap chip amp blew the SET out of the water; not merely in low frequency / bass performance ... but before I mention those other attributes, yes I'm talking about a massive off the charts improvement bass, both in quality and quantity. So regardless of whatever gains you think you might make with a better sub, you still have an issue in the midrange that no amount of bass augmentation can fix.


Would you think the following amp could mate well with my speakers?  Thank you for your feedback!

http://www.jolida.com/product/jd-1000-brc

Wind Chaser

Re: Best SubWoofer to match M3 S Turbo's ?
« Reply #23 on: 30 Dec 2017, 06:29 am »
Would you think the following amp could mate well with my speakers?  Thank you for your feedback!

I'm sure it's a fine amp, as to how well it will mate with your speakers, I do not know.

However I have an amp that surprised me, especially in conjunction with the Spatial's. I am no longer using it and you can have it free, no strings attached, as long as you are willing to cover half the shipping. All I ask in return is that you comment on how it compares to your SET. Deal?

Wind Chaser

Re: Best SubWoofer to match M3 S Turbo's ?
« Reply #24 on: 30 Dec 2017, 06:40 am »
I should add that amp I'm offering to you for free displaced this...




JackD

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Re: Best SubWoofer to match M3 S Turbo's ?
« Reply #25 on: 30 Dec 2017, 06:53 am »
The M3 Turbo S is never going to have the "bass sound" you were used to with a Transmission Line speaker.  Different philosophy and different sound.  Even with subs you won't get the same sound you got with TL speakers and a TL sub and I owned the same sub as you at one point.  So pick an amp you like with the speakers for the majority of the frequency range and then buy a pair of sealed subs to fill in the bottom.  If the Jolida gives you that then pick up a pair of Rythmik subs and run them from the speaker level inputs.  I have tried my M3 Turbo S's and now Triode Master's with over a half dozen amp including tube, Class A/B and Class D and the best match I found was the Nuprime ST-10 at $1500.  With any of the amps in my Family Room the subs were still needed.  I started with a pair of ACI Force XL's and then moved to the Rythmik subs.  But like Wind Chaser said, in all but the smallest rooms, you will get the "tone" you may be looking for with low powered tubes but that will be about it.  Those types of amps work best with speakers like Omega and Avantgarde and a select few others. 

PMAT

Re: Best SubWoofer to match M3 S Turbo's ?
« Reply #26 on: 30 Dec 2017, 02:09 pm »
Wow, awesome offer. So nice to see. This world needs more acts of kindness.

sumoking

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Re: Best SubWoofer to match M3 S Turbo's ?
« Reply #27 on: 31 Dec 2017, 08:12 am »
I'm sure it's a fine amp, as to how well it will mate with your speakers, I do not know.

However I have an amp that surprised me, especially in conjunction with the Spatial's. I am no longer using it and you can have it free, no strings attached, as long as you are willing to cover half the shipping. All I ask in return is that you comment on how it compares to your SET. Deal?

Deal! I will be honest in my review.
Note - I just saw this message.  Pretty amazing offer.  I will private message you.

Happy new year!

who?me?

Re: Best SubWoofer to match M3 S Turbo's ?
« Reply #28 on: 2 Jan 2018, 06:28 pm »
I'm sure it's a fine amp, as to how well it will mate with your speakers, I do not know.

However I have an amp that surprised me, especially in conjunction with the Spatial's. I am no longer using it and you can have it free, no strings attached, as long as you are willing to cover half the shipping. All I ask in return is that you comment on how it compares to your SET. Deal?

Helluva deal, appreciate that he’s just trying to help people get into better Audio.

But I would agree that the M3Triode masters, even though they are more tube friendly, still need some growling from SS or Class D amps to get the best overall effect.

 I have the M3TMs, and even with the PrimaLuna Dialogue HP Tube Integrated with an octet of KT88s,  the low end was lacking.  I’ve never been a Class D fan, though the tech has certainly improved, and Clayton himself recommended the Class D NuPrimes, Red Dragons as solid performers. And the Vinnie Rossi LIO is a tube/ultracapacitator hybrid, and touted/shown with the M3TMs at most of the trad shows that Clayton attends. So for me personally, I’m looking at a tube/SS system for my M3TMs.

damguz

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Re: Best SubWoofer to match M3 S Turbo's ?
« Reply #29 on: 7 Feb 2018, 01:26 pm »
Any updates on the deal, the amp and how it sounds?

sumoking

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Re: Best SubWoofer to match M3 S Turbo's ?
« Reply #30 on: 25 Feb 2018, 08:53 pm »
I bought pair of Desktop Cherries with a 60v PSU and would like to share my observations.  First off, I will share the components in my system.

MAC Book Pro laptop (2.5 GHz Intel Core i7, 16 gb ram, 500gb SSD) with a wire world USB cable, Exogal Comet with Outboard PSU, custom made tube preamp with custom outboard power supply, Spatial M3 Turbo S, SVS 4000SB sub, Audio Envy Cables.

The Cherries monos replaced my custom made 2a3 SET amp that I was very happy with. 

So, why try Class D?

I posted on the spatial audio circle and was asking the groups what subs mate well with the M3 Turbo S speakers.  I shared that I had a SET amp with the Spatials and out of nowhere "Wind Chaser" "butted in" and dared to tell me that my SET wasn't a good match with my Spatials and with the right amp I might not need a sub. 

How dare he? 

He went on to say that he had a SET that he loved and that these amps are a mismatch with the Spatial and that there is a hole in the bass freq that really impacts the low end.   He was so adamant that he issued me a challenge.  He said that he would send me a class D amp with no cost and no strings attached. I just pay the $30 for shipping.  No brainer.  I took him up on it.  Note, I used to partner with Steve Fischer who owned a boutique audio store in Michigan in the middle 90's (Soundquest Audio) and we carried one of the first digital amps from Spectron.  At the time, I thought it was very quick, tight bass great air, etc.  I didn't find it as musical as I preferred though.  So, it was the last time I listened to class  D until I met Wind Chaser.

I received the ~$150 amp and used the ground loop wires he sent that needed to be placed in line with the negative speaker terminal and off I went to listen.  I immediately noticed it was cleaner and quieter than my SET.    I heard some notes in the music I had never heard before. Interesting...For so little money, it had me thinking.  It was impressive and so good I called Wind Chaser and asked him if you gave this amp away, what are you using now? He indicated that he was using Digital Amplifier Company's Cherrie Desktop Mono Blocks. How much better could they be? Hmmm. They were obviously more money that this entry level amp, but still very reasonable.  Within a day, I reached out to Tommy and started a dialog.  Before long, I ordered a set on mono blocks and was still a little concerned that the musicality of the amp still might not be near what my SET might provide.  I knew it would quick, detailed, dynamic, etc.  But would it have the timbre of the SET that I fell so in love with. The entry level amp was close in timbre but still not there to my ears.

Knowing my order was on the way, I switched back to my SET until my new amps arrived.  While I was expecting the sound to be not as quick, I was expecting the timbre to be magical.  I immediately started noticing the sound to be a bit colored; I already knew the SET was a bit rolled off at the top, so no surprise there.  Hmm, the shootout will start any day.  What will I really like best?

The new Cherries came in and I hooked them up.

On the first two notes, my wife immediately said: OMG these are a lot cleaner than your other amps. They were so quiet it was a bit freaky. Understand that I have had and auditioned many many amps in my time.  The Blacks are way Black with this amp!  The image opened up so wide and deep that it sounded like a different system.  The height of the image was noticeably different as well. I got my reference recording speaker set up disc and tweaked placement and i was ready to listen. I would say that I was somewhat conflicted.  I don't think my brain and thousands of hours of listening processed what I was hearing as quickly as other changes I have made. 

While I was thinking I was missing some midrange bloom I also noticed a bite on the horns section that I had never heard before.  Listening to Holly Cole's Temptation album and in particular, Little Boy Blue, I was captured by the bite of the horns. I was transported in the studio when it was being recorded.  I knew in the back of my mind that the SET was rolled off and I had been missing the upper frequencies.  Tommy's amp is billed at reproducing up to 100K.   The Cherries had so much air and space between the notes it was treat to appreciate it.  I heard no evidence of any unnaturalness in the higher frequencies.  Just cymbals and triangles that are clean and fully extended.  No concern with any sibilance with Female voices.  I recently downloaded Diana Krall's "Turn up the Quiet" at 24/192K.  Want a treat? Listen to the tracks "Sway" and the next track "No Moon At All".  The combination of acoustic guitars, bass, & strings coupled with Krall's sultry voice shows off what these amps do best.  The space around the guitar, the plucking and tone of the double bass, the presence of Diana's breathing and singing highlights her phrasing and her magic. When the strings come in, the goose bumps appear and my attention was captured waiting for the next note.  I shifted and began listening to a Male Voice. An older, simple but beautiful song from Neil Diamond- Stones. Guitars and percussion were right on and his baritone voice never better.

Janis Ian - "Breaking Silence" was next and this is one of the better recordings I have in my collection.  Beautifullly crafted songs with outstanding musicians- this collection of songs are so well recorded.  I can't say I have ever heard a pop/rock album with dynamics this impressive. If you haven't heard it, you haven't heard what your system is capable of. Supertramp: Crime of the Century, Pink Floyd ?  Its right up there.  I talked to Janis's office and ordered a couple CD's and had Janis sign one of the copies. Just 16/44 ripped files and the recording is so good, you would think its the master tapes.  The Cherrie's with it dynamic capabilities are the perfect match. I have heard this CD with so many fantastic amps and speakers- I can't say that I heave heard it any better than last night.

After listening for four straight hours and throughly enjoying every minute of it, my appreciate goes out to Tommy and the Digital Amplifier Company for an amazing product especially at its price point. I have never heard an amp this good for anything close to this price.  It has it all!

As important is that Tommy is about as nice as you can find as an owner and customer service is outstanding.

I also want to say thank you to the Wind Chaser for opening my eyes to the current level of Class D!

I just received the DAC DAC and should be hooking it up tonight to see what it has in store.  The Exogal is a very strong DAC and is very musical.

I'll provide the comparison feedback later this week.

Cheers.
Sumo
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gmat

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Re: Best SubWoofer to match M3 S Turbo's ?
« Reply #31 on: 25 Feb 2018, 10:40 pm »
Interesting comments regarding the M3TMs SET amps. I thought they were designed specifically for tube amps. I'm still fairly new to this hobby but recently replaced my Cronos Magnum II with a Line Magnetic 508ia SET integrated and it sounds amazing playing just about everything. Huge soundstage and more slam than the Cronos, much cleaner in the mids and the tone is gorgeous. The bass sounds good too, especially in any recording that is properly mastered. Is anyone else running an LM amp with the M3TMs?




sumoking

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Re: Best SubWoofer to match M3 S Turbo's ?
« Reply #32 on: 26 Feb 2018, 12:12 am »
I do not have the triode masters...
I love my single ended amp, but there is a window into the
music that I didn’t have until I got my Cherries.

gmat

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Re: Best SubWoofer to match M3 S Turbo's ?
« Reply #33 on: 26 Feb 2018, 12:23 am »
That's funny because I feel the same way about switching to LM508.  :)  I'm just trying to understand why the SETs are not a good fit for the M3TMS. Is it a power issue? The LM is 48 watts per channel which I understand is pretty high for a SET.

sumoking

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Re: Best SubWoofer to match M3 S Turbo's ?
« Reply #34 on: 26 Feb 2018, 02:07 am »
I have a Spatial M3 Turbo S, so I couldn't comment on how well your amp works on a pair of Triode Masters.
I can tell you I don't miss tubes at all now that I have the Cherry Mono Blocks.

SFDude

Re: Best SubWoofer to match M3 S Turbo's ?
« Reply #35 on: 26 Feb 2018, 03:39 am »
sumoking,

Am really interested to hear your comparisons with the DAC DAC compared to the Exogal Comet (which I also currently have with the outboard PSU).

I am driving the M3TS with the Mivera Icepower 1200AS module amp, no preamp. I also have a Line Magnetic 216ia amp as well, which I thought was a large step up from the NuPrime monoblock STA-9s, mainly in terms of tonality and fullness of sound with good dimensionality. The Icepower is a different beast that sounds more “complete” top to bottom to my ears than the LM, to the point where I don’t really think I need a sub to pair with the Spatials. It is THAT good to my ears.

-dave

sumoking

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Re: Best SubWoofer to match M3 S Turbo's ?
« Reply #36 on: 26 Feb 2018, 07:41 pm »
Note I got the sub before I got the Cherries.  It goes down to like 18hz and my spatials will never go that low
With any amp.  I have always liked to hear the  full spectrum of sound, so it wasn’t a decision based on the sound of any amp.  When Wind Chaser brought up that a digital amp will improve your system so you don’t
Need a sub, I disregarded that since I already knew  I wanted the Last octave.

I considered the Mivera, but I liked that Tommy designs his own boards for the last 20 years. In the other model if a board is recalled it would be a hassle to deal with.

That said, I’m sure your amp sounds great!

gab

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Re: Best SubWoofer to match M3 S Turbo's ?
« Reply #37 on: 26 Feb 2018, 08:10 pm »


I considered the Mivera, but I liked that Tommy designs his own boards for the last 20 years. In the other model if a board is recalled it would be a hassle to deal with.


Sumo - I did just the opposite. The main reason I bought the Mivera amp was the Icepower module. Everything well designed after they spent $$$$$ of R&D over many years to develop it. Bulletproof and excellent specs. And a 10 year warranty. I am very happy :thumb:

gab

SFDude

Re: Best SubWoofer to match M3 S Turbo's ?
« Reply #38 on: 1 Jun 2018, 04:51 pm »
So I recently moved and had nowhere else to put my system other than this living room which opens up into a dining area space on the left side. It's a fairly larger space than what I had before so I have some flexibility on moving the speakers a bit further out and apart. Current arrangement (as shown in the pic) is needed to keep them out of the way so that the wife deems it "acceptable".  8)



I definitely need a sub to fill in the lower range. Rythmik subs were suggested earlier and I would rather have a sealed box sub to be more discrete about putting yet another piece of gear into this space. Any other recommended subs that folks have in their systems currently which integrate well? Would be able to use the Exogal Comet's outputs (they have both balanced and single ended) simultaneously so I can connect one of them to a sub as well.

-dave

JerryM

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Re: Best SubWoofer to match M3 S Turbo's ?
« Reply #39 on: 1 Jun 2018, 04:57 pm »
Yes, a sub placed squarely into the fireplace would be awesome - infinite baffle supreme.  :D