[Jay S]

I had an IC that I used to think was bright until after I put in my Echobuster acoustic panels.  There was another IC that I thought was natural, but seemed a bit rolled off after the Echobusters were installed.  It almost makes me want to stop upgrading my furniture so that I can stop changing cables!

[Dan Banquer]

The quote below is from Brian Cheney of VMPS from another thread (excuses, marketing and other stuff) on this forum. I noted no mention of wire, cable, or IC in his full post.

"I have been doing CES shows since 1977 and come well prepared. Our 2003 Alexis Park room (12x18') featured 128 sq feet of 3" thick Sonex plus numerous Room Tunes and Tube Traps. Most exhibit rooms I visited in that hotel had some ficus plants and sounded accordingly."

[Marbles]

The quote below is from Brian Cheney of VMPS from another thread (excuses, marketing and other stuff) on this forum. I noted no mention of wire, cable, or IC in his full post.

"I have been doing CES shows since 1977 and come well prepared. Our 2003 Alexis Park room (12x18') featured 128 sq feet of 3" thick Sonex plus numerous Room Tunes and Tube Traps. Most exhibit rooms I visited in that hotel had some ficus plants and sounded accordingly."

He also uses very nice and somewhat expensive speaker cables for his rooms at the shows....in fact I have some of the Bolder Nitro speaker cable that was in his room at the 2003 CES and it is VERY good in my system.  In fact it is the best speaker cable I have ever heard in my system.  My room has been treated with 4" acoustic panels in select places.  

Now, I wonder why BC would choose to use an expensive cable at CES over the zip wire you propose is just as good.

If you don't propose it's just as good, then why this post?

[Dan Banquer]

I think the question goes to Brian Cheney. Should I contact him or do you wish to?

[nathanm]

Do people ever cut apart or disassemble high-dollar cables when reviewing them to see what's inside?  At least with the "zip cord" (which is apparently a derogatory term) you can see exactly what it is.  With a 500 dollar speaker cable they've got it all covered up with shiny jackets, flexo sleeving and shrink wrap.  All very nice things to have I agree, but is the metal wire inside all that different from the unfashionable-looking zip cord?  Is wire in fact the ONLY thing inside or are there other electronic parts in the esoteric cords that would affect their frequency response?  Just curious.

I took apart the "exotic" cable on my CD player to see if I could squeeze the contacts together to make them tighter, and the wire itself wasn't anything special.  Just stranded copper nicely terminated.  I wonder how much that cord would cost if they sold it separately?

[Marbles]

I think the question goes to Brian Cheney. Should I contact him or do you wish to?

Please be my guest....

[JoshK]

I think the real test would be for Dan, will all due respect, to put his money where his mouth is and order a pair of Nitro speaker cables.  Then he should compare these to his zip cord in his system and give us his honest feedback.  I even think Wayne has a satisfaction period if I am not mistaken.  Really nothing to risk.  Maybe he could send a pair of his speaker cables to BC to compare to the Nitros and BC could give us his $.02 worth too.

Without really testing the cables we are bickering about I see this thread as endless sqawking.

[Marbles]

At least with the "zip cord" (which is apparently a derogatory term) you can see exactly what it is.

Zip cord is a descriptive term, not a derogatory one.

In fact I use it in my bedroom setup and for rear channels in my HT's as well as my billiards room stereo.

[Brian Cheney]

I am very careful about everything in a Show booth, since the environment is hostile and the time available for setup quite limited.

One of Wayne's customers brought over a set of his Nitro Bybee IC's about 6 months ago.  In my system they were an improvement over the Analysis silver I was using, so I asked Wayne to supply cables for our booth.  He labored mightily for many weeks and was able to supply most (tho not all) of the IC's we ended up using.  He also wiggled his way into spending all 4 Show days in our booth chatting up customers.

We used Wayne's speaker wire on our center channel (Trinaural setup) but two pair of Kimber Select to biamp the RM/X mains.  Four pair of balanced IC's (required to make the 2 to 3 channel comparison) were supplied by Audio Magic.  We had two complete sources (again to make switching easy for the judges) and the $599 Philips CD1000 I obtained at Good Guys outperformed my $16,000 Krell/Pass Labs CD combo (the reverse was true when I got home, go figure). Audio Magic also provided AC line filtering through their Stealth Matrix (2 boxes) and I also had my Bybee AC filters working.  

CES 2003 was the most complex setup I've ever done and it didn't sound very good until Saturday, just in time for the final judging.  But I feel had we not taken such care with room treatment, wires and cables, sources and amplifiers (Ampzilla 2000's throughout), line filtering and speaker placement we would not have won so much as a Booby Prize, let alone Best of CES.

There was one variable over which we had no control: program material.  I encourage requests, so just about everything we played came from the visitors to the booth and was unfamiliar.  Almost everything sounded terrific which tells me something about the system's resolution and tonal balance.

[Dan Banquer]

The following is a reply to my e mail query from Brian Cheney.

  Wayne contributed only wire and cable to the booth.  Unlike Jim Bongiorno he did not help pay for it.  

Mostly I brought my home system to CES which includes the Kimber speaker wire.  Ray loaned me two pair of his top of the line several years ago and has not asked for it back, otherwise I would not have had the funds for this very expensive silver wire.  It does seem to sound better than other wire I have tried including Monster 12 gauge, Cardas, Analysis and Wireworld.

I think the most important feature of speaker wire is its series R which directly influences the frequency response of the speaker.  After all the wire contributes much more to the source impedance the speaker sees than any amplifier except the incompetent ones (like certain SETs I've tried).  Kimber Select is a 6 gauge equivalent.  Marty DeWulf has good luck with 6 gauge 19 strand copper wire from Lowe's hardware hooked up to his RM 40's..

B

my guess is that we should convert from 12 AWG from Parts Express and go for the 6 AWG from Lowe's hardware.
                                     d.b.

[Wayne1]

I did not contribute any funds, as Brian told me if I supplied the cables, I would not have to. I also did not receive any offical mention in any of the CES program material.

Brian asked me to supply a certain amount and length of cables. With less than a week before CES he then calls me up and tells me that Mr Bongiorno informed him that now the interconnect wiring has to be all balanced cables.

I had no time to build any additional cables for use in that set-up. The lengths Brian gave me were not entirely correct for the speaker cable. So only the center channel was wired with the NITRO speaker cable.

Brian did tell me at the show that it was the closest speaker cable he had heard to the top of the line Kimber Select. The overall AWG of the NITRO speaker cable is 11.5 FYI.

Brian,
As to my "wiggling" my way into spending time chatting up customers, I did man the booth while you and James were off accepting your award and I did help load out the entire display gear, along with Lucius from Dynamic Sounds Audio in Washington, DC. If you had a problem with me being in the booth or not paying for it, I do wish you would have spoken to me at CES about it, privately, not months later in a public forum.

I am quite a bit smaller and not as succesful as Kimber Kable I cannot afford to just give cables away.

[Brian Cheney]

Just teasing you, Wayne, your presence in the booth and help setting up and tearing down was most welcome.

Nor would I expect you to give me free product just for the halibut.  I don't understand why Ray Kimber would either, but Ray is not a well man.

CES 2003 was once again the triumph of the small guy over the big fellows.  Our competition for the High End Audio category included 25 of the biggest names in the business, and the only finialist not from our room was the $67,000 Swan ribbon (which received no votes in the finals).  You and your product were big contributors to our success.

[Psychicanimal]

News Flash.........

A friend of mine took the speaker wire he and I am using and was told that although they did not stock it, is a "signal transfer wire".

[audiojerry]

Dan, thanks for taking the time to explain.
Sorry, but I've been too busy to respond in a timely way.

I started with 14 gauge stranded copper in my system many years ago. When I began upgrading I replaced it with Kimber 4TC. I don't recall exactly, but it was over $1.00 per foot, which I thought was expensive badk then. Over time, I found that I wasn't happy with the way it sounded, and dragged out my old stranded copper to compare. I really couldn't hear a difference, but my listening skills were less honed than now. Yes, I believe that as you gain experience, you develop better listening skills.

A year or so later, I made a big upgrade purchase and switched from the Kimber to Audioquest Midnight. This was about $300 for 10' at the time. The improvement was not subtle. At that time my wife was a little more involved in what I was doing, partially because she was trying to figure out how much I was spending on this stuff, , but she immediately heard the difference from the kitchen upstairs. She didn't even know what I had done, but exclaimed that it was sounding pretty good.  

Since then, I have periodically pursued upgrades, including speaker wire; some very, very expensive. There has not been a direct correspondence between price and performance, but there have been noticeable audible differences. In the end, I have settled on a product that has yielded the best results I have heard so far, and at a price that is far lower than others I've tried, but at the same far more expensive than 6 or 12 gauge copper.

Do you dismiss off hand the improvements that might be derived ffrom things such as better quality copper or silver because of the process used in its extruding, such as the elimination of oxygen, or in the architecture that is used in the speaker cable's design such as a helix or single strand vs multi strand, or in the use of a signal ground, or the type of dielectric used, or spacing between wire, or the type of shielding and whether there might be an interaction between the wire and the shielding? It seems to me that there are many factors that can enter into the design of a speaker cable, and whether or not these factors are audible can be verifiable.

I know that differences in design can effect bass, treble extension, brightness, transparency, soundstaging, image smearing, detail retrieval, etc. I do believe that a good 6 or 12 gauge wire can provide a good balance of all of the above components of sound, and along with it your best bang for the buck,  but I do not believe that it can elevate your system to higher levels that a well designed wire can.

[MaxCast]

Maybe we should have little signs in our sigs or avatars like...

<><  for believers

    for non-believers

 

 

That way you know who your dealing with and can disregard all their posts because of their stance on wires.

[Xi-Trum]

That way you know who your dealing with and can disregard all their posts because of their stance on wires.

MaxCast, I don't think the issue is whether there is a difference in wires or not.  It's how a manufacturer can get away with selling a $1000 cable that is not any better than 12-gauge 10 cents/foot cable!

I think the problem is also attributed to us consumers.  For various reasons, some of us tend to (wrongly) associate high price with high quality without any skepticism.  And those of us who express skepticisms tend to get crucified...

... like wearing a Scarlet Letter on our avatar!   j/k

[Carlman]

Being fairly new to this hobby, 5 years or so, I can attest that you go through stages... honed listening skills, understanding which parts of the system make it sound a certain way.... and other factors... such as does cable make a difference.. and at what cost.  I used to think more $ meant better sound but, that's soooo not the case.  An understanding of how certain parts work together makes for a much wiser hifi shopper.

I've heard cheap wires that sound fair/poor and cheap wires that sound great.  I'm skeptical of all of it because I'm objective and know what I want in sound quality.  I don't know your objectives, or what 'sounds good' to you.  ('you' being figurative and I guess, somewhat literal since I don't know anyone personally on this thread)

I've heard a w-i-d-e variety of systems and once you reach a certain point, it's all just personal preference.  I'd say any component over $1,000 will sound pretty good to me.  Any cable will sound good in the 150-250 range (to me).  However, getting the right mix to hear music the way I want, may cost more or less.  To me it doesn't matter whether John, Paul, or Bob like brand x.  
Their review is based on:
The system used to test them;
The listener's ear; and
The listener's preferences.  

That's a LOT of variables to me.  I just need to hear it my system to know whether I'll like it.  So, if Dan's cheap cable sounds good to him, so be it.  My cheap cable sounds good to me as well.  I've got some even cheaper cable that sounds awful (to me, in my system)...

I can't believe the amount of hype power cords get.  Count me in as a 'non believer' when it comes to the claims of what happens with new power cords... I mean, it makes a nice improvement but, wow.. the claims that have been made with power cords! such as 'new PC's make more of a difference than a new component'... And it's about all types of cords for that matter.  It's one of the reasons I've stopped going to Audio Asylum... too many cable nazi's.  When I was looking for an amp, someone emailed and suggested I upgrade my interconnects and power cord.  In the end, replacing the amp made a huge difference...  because all that other stuff just makes the component as good as that component can get.

I have yet to hear better than what I have in my system now.  I may try some of Wayne's cables but, if there's not a signifigant improvement, they'll be up for sale... and I'll have wasted a lot of time and money building them, buying them, etc.  If they sound better, then it was all worthwhile.  I guess that's the nature of this hobby.  My goal is to achieve a particular sound... and I'm well on my way and very happy with my progress.

Thanks for letting me vent.
-Carl

[Marbles]

I have yet to hear better than what I have in my system now.  I may try some of Wayne's cables but, if there's not a signifigant improvement, they'll be up for sale... and I'll have wasted a lot of time and money building them, buying them, etc.  If they sound better, then it was all worthwhile.  I guess that's the nature of this hobby.  My goal is to achieve a particular sound... and I'm well on my way and very happy with my progress.

Thanks for letting me vent.
-Carl

Bolder has a 30 day money back policy, so I don't think you would be out too much money if you didn't like them.

[MaxCast]

Here is my take on cables.

If you have the $$ go for what ever cable you like.  If you don't have the cash for the expensive cables, get the cables that sound best to you in your budget.

I look for a good quality built cable in my price range.  I will consider the material used and shielding requirements then make my best judgement.  My system would probably benifit more from better components than better cables.

I think right behind room treatment we should consider our ears.  I would love to have a hearing test done from 20-20k.  I understand most testing places limit that range.  From reading cable tests/shootouts I have to conclude that some of us can just flat out hear better than others.  And yes, the system and room have be taken into consideration too.

MaxCast, I don't think the issue is whether there is a difference in wires or not. It's how a manufacturer can get away with selling a $1000 cable that is not any better than 12-gauge 10 cents/foot cable!

Is there a difference or is it that you or I can not hear the difference?  If you can't hear the difference the get the cool looking ones

[nathanm]

Where are the blind audiophiles that's what I wanna know.  If anyone should have superior hearing it should be them.  We should have a double blind test, no seriously - using actual blind people! Heh!