[Norman bates]

you could do a focused array for full range drivers.

[FullRangeMan]

Nice, what drivers are these?

[Norman bates]

w4-1337sdf

they've gone up a bit in price lately ($57.6 or 55.8 in 8+ quantity).

learned a lot from it.


1. baffle step (ouch).
2. don't make the micro enclosures a bunch of cubes (nice broad peak past 1khz).
3. still only the sd of a wide open 12".
4. really sends a lot of sound up and into the air (hard to describe).
5. neo magnets (to hold on grill cover) do funny things to metallic paint.

[FullRangeMan]

It is a interesting driver.
There is any comb filter ?

[Norman bates]

Nope

[dB Cooper]

Every line array I have heard has had a strange imaging problem: The sound seems to be emanating from an invisible wire strung between the tops of the arrays. I noticed this on the megabuck Vandersteens, where the image also stopped dead in its tracks at the speaker axis (there was no stereo image outside the speakers whatsoever). The image from the Carver line array speaker the year before (2017; I skipped the show this year) had the interesting property of moving further up the tower the closer I got; I didn't try different positions with the Vandersteens but I was almost dead center and well back (a position I chose because the Carvers, like bagpipes, sounded better and better the further away you moved).

I have noticed at shows that the simpler the design, the more I tend to like it; the AudioNote rep summed up well when I told him this: "The more drivers you implement, the harder it is to create the illusion that the sound is coming from a single source." Lobing, cancellations, and comb-filter effects are almost impossible to eliminate except for a 'sweet spot' that gets smaller and smaller as the complexity of the design increases.

[Norman bates]

My array seemed to only come from the middle 3 drivers.

I agree, 6 to 30' away, a flat array seems like a closeup of lips on a movie screen, like 6' tall lip.
Drives me crazy.

I may build another this year.
Mine are no more.

[FullRangeMan]

Photo show this baffle not straight it is concave, what may reduce comb filtering.

[Norman bates]

I found horizontal dispersion was as good as a single driver.

But out of the sweet spot sounded fine, further back, standing up, etc.

Unlike my 4 driver focused array.  That one, if you stood up, the high end died off so fast, it seemed like you instantly got a head cold.
Disorienting even.

[Norman bates]

[JLM]

As I understand the concept, if one mediocre driver doesn't cut it, try spending more on multiples of the same in a bigger cabinet. 

Driver efficiency and frequency response won't change and either without using EQ and pushing them beyond their intended use.  If increased bass output is the goal, why not just add a subwoofer?

Yes power handling and thus ultimate attainable sound pressure levels go up for a given driver by using multiples.  But bigger drivers that can fill the room with bass can handle the power needed to attain live music peaks in residentially sized spaces.

As frequency goes up and waveform size decreases compared to driver size combing effects from an array are inevitable.

The vertical array has to spread from floor to ceiling in order to gain the advantage of 2-dimensional versus 3-dimensional efficiency, but will project all images as floor to ceiling. 


Bottom line, IMO simple arrays, even with EQ added, are a flawed concept.  Better to use a small full range driver and add a subwoofer with appropriate crossover if desired for additional bass response and increased ultimate sound pressure levels.

[S Clark]

Line arrays work exceedingly well when well designed.  Comb filtering, bass response, imaging, and any other flaws are the result of a failure of design and not a limitation of line arrays per se.

[JLM]

Line arrays work exceedingly well when well designed.  Comb filtering, bass response, imaging, and any other flaws are the result of a failure of design and not a limitation of line arrays per se.

Perhaps, but not in a simple/affordable application of extended range drivers as being discussed here.

[FullRangeMan]

These TangBang drivers are titanium cone and rubber suspension not crap, they are perfectly suited for this application and not having xover exempt him of micro signal loss and from what we see in the pictures they were correctly implemented by Norman.

What is not nice is depreciating the work of people who know how to do things happen.

[S Clark]

Perhaps, but not in a simple/affordable application of extended range drivers as being discussed here.

Agree.  They are not an easy DIY design. 

[Norman bates]

Can be done with the liked tc9 driver ($12 from parts express).

I saw the original design using the nsb 4" drivers ($1) in a focused open baffle.
3 drivers per flat section, 5 sections angled at listening spot.

I want to try the tg9, planet10 sort of liked it.

[dB Cooper]

Line arrays work exceedingly well when well designed.  Comb filtering, bass response, imaging, and any other flaws are the result of a failure of design and not a limitation of line arrays per se.

I'm mystified by what I'm reading here vs what I've heard at shows.

Apparently Carver can't do it. Heard his at Capital Audiofest a couple years ago and the inaging was bizarre- the image climbed further and further up the tower the closer I got. In the front row the image was a 'clothesline' strung between the tops of the towers.

Von Schweikert evidently can't do it either- for a quarter of a million bucks no less. Their tower also provided an image strung between the tops of the towers. No height, no front-to-back. nothing outside the speakers. I was bewildered by the praise heaped on this system by the audio press. I thought it was easily bettered by many systems at the show for five cents on the dollar.

To be fair though, neither of these systems was a classic line array. The Carvers had about two dozen speakers in each tower- front-firing tweeters and side-firing midranges. The Von Schweikerts had a very elaborate multi-way version of an MTM layout. But they shared the characteristics of a many-drivered system with the speakers arranged in a long vertical layout.

So maybe I will run into these well-designed line arrays at some point, but all the ones I have been exposed to so far have not floated my boat. In fact, I have noted over time that the simpler the driver arrangement, the better I tend to like it. When I mentioned this to an AudioNote rep, he said, "The more complicated the design, the harder it is to create the illusion of a single point source." This tends to sum up my listening experiences pretty well.

[S Clark]

I'm mystified by what I'm reading here vs what I've heard at shows....
...So maybe I will run into these well-designed line arrays at some point, but all the ones I have been exposed to so far have not floated my boat.

Danny Richie hasn't been at the RMAF in several years, but beginning in 2007 his line sources have been top notch.  His latest is, without any doubt, the best sounding speaker I've ever had the pleasure to hear.  Rich Hollis has a similar design with much more complex amplification and digital control that I'd like to hear.  None of these use full range drivers.
Not saying you would like any of them, as individual taste vary, but I'm not the only fan of these designs. 

[Norman bates]

I'm glad there still is some life here on this circle.

[DaveC113]

Photo show this baffle not straight it is concave, what may reduce comb filtering.

You may reduce the effect at one position, so head needs to be precisely aligned with the speaker. But, there is going to be lots of comb filtering everywhere else so the experience will be "head in a vice" and it'll throw off the integrity of the reflections, they will not be spectrally correct. 

Despite this there have been several commercail examples of line arrays using full-range drivers, IMO it's a bad idea that can't be fixed.

For a great majority of situations I think a line array of any type is far inferior to a conventional speaker, I've never heard one that images properly. These designs need a ton of SPACE and are never given enough space to operate properly outside of concert venues, ime.

I'd MUCH prefer to spend my money on a smaller quantity of higher end drivers and smaller, higher-end cabinet. 99.99% of the time this will result in better sound in a home environment, unless you really need 120 dB at the LP or all you listen to is symphony in a VERY large room.

If you want to try multiple full rangers, arrange them in a square or clustered together as tightly as possible, like that crazy Tecton design with 1000 tweeters trying to play midrange, lol...