[Audio Refugee]

So, I've noticed a lot of woofer movement when I play music from my turntable. I've played the exact same passage on my CD and don't get anywhere near the woofer movement that I do from the turntable. Rock at volume is noticeably the worst.

I've done a bit of online searching and it seems to point to a need for a rumble filter. Also, seems to point to a possible cartridge/arm mismatch. Seems I can damage my speakers, so until I get this sorted I'll give up rock on the tt and keep the volume down on everything else.

I don't know anything about cart/arm matching or rumble filters. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.

My setup is...

• Thorens TD 280 mkiii Turntable with stock TP-28 Tone Arm
• Ortofon Super OM 20 Cartridge - Tracking force set to 1.25 grams
• Parks Audio Budgie phono preamp- Stock Electro Harmonix 6922EH tubes - Loading/impedance set to 47k per Ortofon Super OM 20 manual
• Nordost Blue Heaven interconnects
• Jolida 202a amp with stock Jolida label tubes
• Meadowlark Swift Speakers
• Nordost Blue Heaven speaker cables

I have added...

• New Thacker belt
• JA Michell record clamp
• Acrylic mat

[FullRangeMan]

You need a new more silent motor imo.

[toddc2]

I'm having the same problem. My buddy was over the other night and suggested I increase the tracking force. I added a gram and the woofer movement decreased substantially, but going from 2.0 grams to 3.0 grams doesn't sit well with me so I put the tracking force back to 2.0 (it's nominal setting).

I'll be following this thread with interest, thanks for posting.

Todd

[drummermitchell]

I had the same troubles only I was using DD-15 subs.
Anything past 8:30 on my pre and Rumble in the Jungle.
I even had my TT mounted on the wall(Clear audio Champion II.
Back then I ordered 8  Gik tritraps ...end of story almost.
Then I could turn up to 11:00 and clean and clear as a bell.
No Rumble,no feed back ect.
I could turn it up as much as I could handle and NO TROUBLES,RUMBLE<FEED BACK,Nothing.
Mentioned this before and seems most say a filter of sorts
doesn't that FK up the musicality somewhat.
Treat your corners with thick bass trapping],don't screw up the signal with more filtering.

[Elizabeth]

The op does not mention how the TT is placed in relation to the speakers?

I have my TT 15 feet back from the speakers. with plenty of mass under the TT.

I suggest adding mass (bricks) under the TT. (yes raising it up a bit)
Even on the floor under/around the stand if you have wood floors... Add 100/200 pounds under the stand, and the floor will no longer vibrate the TT.
(you could test this by stnding close to the TT stand. Does standing right there, maybe also holding the stand under the TT stop or reduce the woofer pumping?)

[Letitroll98]

I'm not the cartridge compliance/tonearm mass guru, but the first thing I'd look at is a mismatch.  Neobop was your man for that, but he's been awol from the site for awhile.  So you're left with looking up the info online.  Luckily there's plenty of info there, http://www.theanalogdept.com/cartridge___arm_matching.htm and https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/tonearm-cartridge-compatability/ came up right away.

There are also a bunch of inexpensive sub sonic filters, just click on eBay or Amazon.  These can work if you don't want to change your cartridge, but do introduce a phase shift if those things matter to you.

[PierreB]

If you look at https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_database.php?m=Ortofon&t=any&mod=Om+20&sort=2&Search=Search&sty=&ovlo=&ovhi=&can=&dclo=&dchi=&stid=&masslo=&masshi=&notes=&prlo=&prhi=
The tracking force should be from 1.25 to 1.75g
Have you tried it at 1.75 ??
Also can you respond to the first question of Elizabeth.

[Maceo23]

Before you start adding anything into the signal change, try just moving the turntable.  If you have some long interconnects, move the table to another spot in your room.  It could just be that its sitting in a bass node.  I had a system at a friend house that was doing something similar.  When turning the system up over a certain point, the subs sounded like they were going to explode, it wasn't subtle.  Moving the table to another part of the room fixed it immediately, and didn't cost anything.

[Audio Refugee]

Thanks for all the input and direction so far. I'm keenly aware me and my equipment are mostly entry grade, so I sincerely appreciate your patience and kindness.

To answer Elizabeth's question about distance between TT and speaker... about 18".



I took Maceo23's advice and increased the distance between the TT and speaker. Huge difference. Still some woofer movement, but it looks like normal movement and not nearly as much when arranged as above...



I also noticed that the effect is lessened more when I move the speaker forward of the TT and even more when the speaker is moved behind the TT. 

Letitroll98, thanks for the links. Those were interesting reads and covered a topic I had no prior knowledge of. My tone arm effective mass appears to be 12.5 grams, which puts it in the moderate mass category. My cartridge weighs 5 grams, but I don't have the weight of my fasteners or leads. The specs also mention a Compliance dynamic lateral of 25 µm/mN, but I'm not certain that's the spec I need. I'll check the weight next time I do an alignment. 

So, it appears that, at least in my case, placement has a lot to do with low frequency rumble. 

[Elizabeth]

If possible, leave the speakers where they were. Move the TT to around the corner!
 to the left. You have some (dark color) shelving/cabinet right around the corner..
I would place the TT on that. (if possible)
It is far enough back.(though you might need a longer IC.
(or move the whole audio cabinet over there.??
Though the second picture is OK too.
Where it was in the first picture.. I fantasize  a big (Human) arm reaching from the right speaker grabbing the TT and shaking it HARD. Which is what the woofer is doing to the TT.

[bacobits1]

I agree with what everyone has said. The first thing I would do is put something heavy under the table
3" butcher block mine is 27# (also used 50# granite under that) and that set on some Herbie's footers or layer of 1/2" cork. Of course you can go real expensive. Ceramic floor under the cabinet may want to put something under that. Herbie's again. Herbie's can get expensive quick too. A little at a time is all.

Move the speakers forward to keep your symmetrical looks. Otherwise they'll be in walkways They are ported on the front so that helps a bit. That system should sound pretty nice.
I do use the subsonic filter on my Pre's and they work well where I hear no differences. No sub, makes things easier.
I have no sub here. I had an incident of some skipping on bass heavy recordings and looked and found I didn't have the filter engaged. It was catching the back wave from rear ported speakers 36" from the front wall.
I had the the KAB subsonic filter he sells and it worked very well when I had a big sub over pressuring the room in another house. Just a bit of playing around. Good luck, but I don't think it's the cartridge relationship to the arm on your table. If the arm is too light add a 2-3 gram weight on the headshell and readjust everything.

[rlee8394]

Wouldn't hurt to throw down a rug on that ceramic floor. That room must "echo" like crazy.

[felixscerri]

G'day all, the recommended tracking weight for that cartridge range is 1.5 grams.  1.25 grams may be fractionally too light.  I use 1.5 grams with excellent results.    Regards, Felix.     

[Audio Refugee]

Again, thanks all! The main room is about 19' x 25'. The tile section is 4' wide x 25' long. The rest of the room in front of the stereo is carpet (~ 15' x 25), so the echo is not too bad at all. I'll look for a rug to place under the stand. I purchased 10' speaker cables so that I could move the speakers around the room a little bit. I also removed the spike feet on the speakers to avoid scratching the tile floor when I move them. They sit on felt feet now instead. I thought about Fun Tack, but I move them too often for that to really work easily. I like to point them straight into the kitchen when I'm cooking.

I'll look into granite or butcher blocks for under the amp and TT. I've been toying with that idea for quite some time. I'd also toyed with adding Isolate It hemispheres, Isonodes, or Vibrapods. Maybe build a racquet ball base. I just haven't settled on a direction to go. So many choices.

I've also toyed with going to a Primaluna; a VPI or a Rega turntable, a Cambridge Audio CXC; and a better DAC. It all adds up and it's tough to know where to start. Then I toy with upgrading tubes instead. So far I just turn it on, enjoy what I have and be grateful that I was able to put this together for not a whole lot of money. It does sound pretty good, to me.

I'll also play with adding a little more weight to the stylus.

[bacobits1]

"It does sound pretty good, to me."
AND..... that's what counts.

One last idea. My speakers are 120 lbs each on hardwood floor they are spiked. I use the discs they sell for spikes and I stuck those self stick thick floor protectors made of a thick felt material. I can move the speakers anywhere on the floor. If they drag or stick spray some pledge was in the area your moving.

[Elizabeth]

One additional help might be to add separate 'sides' freestanding between the speakers and the actual sides of the cabinet.
The freestanding vertical boards would block the direct/main forces from the speakers getting into he cabinet.
You could move them to behind the cabinet or speakers when not in use?

[BobM]

I'm not the cartridge compliance/tonearm mass guru, but the first thing I'd look at is a mismatch. 

This is exactly what I found to be true for me when I bought a new cartridge. It was just a mismatch with my tonearm. replaced it and all that woofer motion went away.

[woodsyi]

Tonearm-cartridge mismatch is probably a contributing factor.  Take a look at this chart from vinylengine.  Without screws, you are at 7 Hz which is below what you want.  It doesn't get better with screws.  3 grams of screws and you are at 6 Hz.  You want to be between 8 and 11 (green zone).  From the Galen Carol Audio site linked above you have the following.

Any cartridge/tonearm combination will exhibit resonance at a specific frequency (or frequencies). This resonance is due to the interaction of the cartridge (acting as a spring), and the weight of the arm (acting as a mass). The "springiness" of the phono cartridge is described as compliance, the weight of the arm is specified in mass. As an example, a heavy weight on a light spring would obviously over-flex the spring, conversely, a light weight on a strong spring would not allow sufficient flexion.

At resonance, the arm/cartridge combination produces a dramatic rise in output. An increase of 3 to 6dB or more is common. This tremendous boost can cause severe problems if it occurs in the region of recorded music (above 20Hz), or in the area where record warps and rumble are problematic (below 5Hz). A cartridge/arm whose resonance occurs in the region above 20Hz can be influenced by music on the record. At this frequency a significant jump in output (resulting in a "bloated" or "tubby" sound) will be experienced. In extreme cases, the stylus may actually jump out of the groove. Similarly, a cartridge/arm combination that exhibits a resonance below the desired range will exaggerate the effects of record warps, or rumble produced by the turntable.

You have a case of a heavy load on a light spring --  higher the compliance, the softer the suspension.  You would be better off with a lighter tone arm for your cartridge.   Conversely, you would need either a lighter cart with the same compliance, one with a lower compliance (stiffer) at the same weight or a combination thereof.  As an example, a Ortofan 2M Blue at similar price would be a better match with a compliance of 20 µm/mN which gives you a resonant frequency of 8 Hz even though it's 2.2 grams heavier. 

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I just went through the same issue with my son.  He was getting unwanted woofer movement on some music.  Unfortunately we could not move his speakers or TT.   I tried my phono preamp which has a rumble filter in his system and it fixed the issue.  He is using an emotiva XPS-1 phono pre which does not have a filter.  So I purchased this DBS subsonic filter from acoustic sounds and it works like a charm.  We have not noticed any degradation of sound quality.  For $20pr it is well worth it.

However, before buying try other suggestions and check your cartridge resonance as someone stated previously.

http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/60042/DB_Systems-DB_Systems_Subsonic_Filter-Turntable_Accessories

They say to place it at the input of the phono preamp.  We found it worked better at the output.  No more unwanted woofer chatter. YMMV.

[Audio Refugee]

Tonearm-cartridge mismatch is probably a contributing factor.  Take a look at this chart from vinylengine.  Without screws, you are at 7 Hz which is below what you want.  It doesn't get better with screws.  3 grams of screws and you are at 6 Hz.  You want to be between 8 and 11 (green zone).  From the Galen Carol Audio site linked above you have the following.

You have a case of a heavy load on a light spring --  higher the compliance, the softer the suspension.  You would be better off with a lighter tone arm for your cartridge.   Conversely, you would need either a lighter cart with the same compliance, one with a lower compliance (stiffer) at the same weight or a combination thereof.  As an example, a Ortofan 2M Blue at similar price would be a better match with a compliance of 20 µm/mN which gives you a resonant frequency of 8 Hz even though it's 2.2 grams heavier.

Man, thanks so much for the thoughtful and researched response.  Now the mismatch issue makes better sense. My turntable works fairly well, but it remains an entry level product. That cartridge was recommended by an online retailer back in January, so it's still relatively new. Now I wish I'd gone with a 2M Blue instead. That time has passed and I don't think I want to put any more money into this TT. I'm looking at a used Rega P3 with an RB300 tonearm. I've also been toying with the idea of a VPI Scout or something similar. I don't think I'll invest in any more cartridges until I settle on a new TT.

I do have another question/issue that this forum might be able to help me understand. That is overhang. from what I understand, overhang is the position of the cartridge as it's mounted on the headshell. How far back or forward it sits in the headshell. How do I determine the best position? Trial and error? Or, is there a better way to choose a starting point?

I just went through the same issue with my son.  He was getting unwanted woofer movement on some music.  Unfortunately we could not move his speakers or TT.   I tried my phono preamp which has a rumble filter in his system and it fixed the issue.  He is using an emotiva XPS-1 phono pre which does not have a filter.  So I purchased this DBS subsonic filter from acoustic sounds and it works like a charm.  We have not noticed any degradation of sound quality.  For $20pr it is well worth it.

However, before buying try other suggestions and check your cartridge resonance as someone stated previously.

http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/60042/DB_Systems-DB_Systems_Subsonic_Filter-Turntable_Accessories

They say to place it at the input of the phono preamp.  We found it worked better at the output.  No more unwanted woofer chatter. YMMV.

Thanks for the links! Those are incredibly inexpensive. Might be an ok short term fix.