[kingdeezie]

They may make a great product.  That isn't enough.  I deal with companies that make great products all the time.  I largely help them sell themselves and go out of business.  Happens all the time.

This.

I don't think anyone is saying that Vapor doesn't make a great product. The issue is, there needs to be more relation to the consumer base. There are a lot of highly knowledgeable people on these boards, so they easily appreciate things that could make Vapor stand out.

The average consumer, that has 30K disposable income, couldn't care less about cabinet construction. A healthy portion of what they are paying for is the experience.

Wilson, Focal, VS, Vandersteen, Rockport, these are long standing companies with healthy dealer networks. Someone looking to spend 30K on a speaker is going to expect the amenities that come with purchasing a speaker for that price. The dealer support, reliability, warranty, company history, and resale value will all factor in.

Does The Nimbus White sonically "crush" a comparably priced speaker from Wilson? I am sure some people would say so, but I've never heard both in the same system, so I don't know.

What I do know, is that if someone had 30K to spend on speakers, they could walk down to their nearest Wilson audio dealer, and if they enjoyed the sound, likely have the speaker within three months, maybe less. All of their questions would be answered, timely, by either the dealer, or someone from the company. All of these things matter, probably more to a lot of people than the overall sound.

If Vapor is going to succeed at these new price points, they need to refine their experience. Yes, it is very cool to sell people on the idea of custom speakers. Yes the product is excellent. However, its the after deposit interaction that will matter most. Was the timeframe met, and was I communicated with in a manner consummate with asking 30K+ for my product?

[Pete Schumacher]

Some of you may know that we have been trying to get something with the "Vapor Sound" into the dealer market so that those "amenities" and wait times would be taken care of. 

To that end we have teamed up with a manufacturer in Paducah, Kentucky, young men with a passion for audio and a facility capable of producing quantity in a timely manner.

Ryan and I have designed a line of speakers for them; applied our knowledge of enclosure design and enlisted our relationships with top driver manufacturers.  We are actively courting dealers at this time to carry this lineup.  Our first shipment of custom drivers is due in a couple weeks and manufacture of multiple sets will begin.  A dealership in Chicago will have a pair for auditioning soon after, and we have also been in contact with dealers in Las Vegas, NYC, and other locations.

If you want to experience the "Vapor Sound" without the wait for custom works of art built to spec, then check out what the guys at Vehement are doing.

https://www.facebook.com/vehementaudio/
https://vehementaudio.com/

[Folsom]

Now that is a great modern day business move. I'm sure there are more things to come.

[JakeJ]

But here on AC most people are cheap bastards, so price hikes are going to piss those people off, on principal.

Note - I myself am a cheap bastard.  But expensive gear doesn't piss me off any more

That's because you got yours already!

[Brettio]

Now that is a great modern day business move. I'm sure there are more things to come.

Couldn't agree more. Hope this move brings nothing but success!

[toddc2]

It doesn't matter what Vapor charges for their custom builds if they don't fix their underlying operations and communications issues. Operationally I would focus on shorter and more predictable build times followed by improved finish quality. I won't even talk about the lack of communication with Ryan other than to say I still haven't heard from him since 3 Sep 2016 (that pretty much says it all in my book).

Todd

[DaveC113]

My $,02... Vapor has always been underpriced for what they offer, but otoh that's what it takes to compete in the value-oriented direct-sale business. Those who have purchased them for previous pricing are lucky.

I think a 2nd line of speakers sold through dealers is a great way to go but I also think these need to be higher-end and more expensive vs the direct-sale line. I don't think the Nimbus on up are appropriate speakers for direct-sale, they need to cost too much. The speakers need to be priced to compete in the market they are intended for and imo Pete is right that the Nimbus should be at least $40k and should be sold through dealers. The Perfect Storm needs to be at least $80k. In a luxury market it makes no sense to compete on value, and imo trying to price speakers like the Nimbus on up in a value market doesn't make sense. If my top priority is performance for the money I'm not going to buy fancy cabinets anyways... the added cost for curved cabinets with fancy finishing is a total luxury expenditure imo.

I mean, if I were a potential Vehement customer I'd look up Vapor and then probably order a Vapor speaker instead... $16k for the Vehement Brezza vs $14k for Vapor Derecho? I'll take the latter!

[toddc2]

The speakers need to be priced to compete in the market they are intended for and imo Pete is right that the Nimbus should be at least $40k and should be sold through dealers.

That's a really interesting point! I have heard Ryan wants to continue his "custom work of art" builds in more or less the same fashion he is doing today, albeit at a higher price and lower volume.

If Vapor were to sell these custom speakers through a dealer network, they would have to create dealer demo stock (a loooooog and fairly expensive proposition given today's model) and then fix the operations issues I mentioned earlier. Put yourself in the dealer's position of selling a $80k speaker and then having to explain the build status to a high maintenance and demanding customer. Not an enviable position to be put in.

These things could be addressed with some working capital and a streamlined operations process, so I agree with DaveC113 that it would make more sense to sell the high dollar range via a dealer network. But if and only if the problems are fixed.

[Folsom]

Interesting, I figured the Nimbus and Aurora's would be the only ones that could be kept lower in price since the construction, while very nice, isn't exactly at the crazy level of stacked plywood. Also I thought maybe they'd end up being the only direct sale models.

To me it seems like they would best be served by having a lot of carcases ready to go. A dealer or direct (you can do direct for states without dealers, and any states with dealers can not do direct, you have to maintain MSRP while direct) just chooses a limited set number of veneer's and colors. Each speaker can have say two classes the normal and SE, where the SE receives upgraded crossovers. (yes only two options). They all have the best standard binding posts that work the best for the speaker/vapor/customer. Inquires for custom veneers can be made at a painstaking extra charge, and I do mean like $3000 probably min. Even though the veneer may only cost $100 more, the problem is the value of the time taken for that would have been spent making a lot more money doing something else. This all would equal much faster delivery times, ideally never exceeding 3 months. They need the prices to hire skilled guys so that all stages of production can be happening at the same time, and an office person is a must to keep it all organized. Ryan will obviously continue R&D, HR manager, quality control, training, etc.

Dave, I have to admit, I like the Derecho looks more than the Brezza, but I'm not everyone.

[Philistine]

Reading Philistine's post I am left wondering is it the all too common Vapor hating or the equally common disillusion that a high-end audio system is an 'investment'? With luxury goods the rule is buy it and walk out of the store or drive off the lot and 30%, 40%, 50% of what you paid vanishes in a 'poof' of smoke. Luxury automobiles are a good example of this. After a few years a Mercedes-Benz AMG that cost $120,000 new can be had for under $20,000. Its a pay to play world and inherent in indulging ourselves in luxury goods is both the means and willingness to produce the ca$h.

Nothing to do with Vapor hating, just a case of ethics, values and good business practice.  I wish Vapor well and believe the product is probably very good. 
If you look at the resale value of other speaker manufacturers here, Salk etc, they get a considerably higher resale margin - 60% plus.  My comments are related to the deflated value of used Vapor speakers being attributed to persistent customer issues related to delayed delivery schedules and non-communication with customers once money is sent.  A price increase isn't going to attract new customers, to build confidence back up in the brand timely supply is going to be the key, I would offer new customers an incentive such as escrow to allay any concerns related to delivery performance.

It's also the same shill's that jump in when anyone posts less than positive, similar pattern with SP Tech/Aether Audio.

[HT cOz]

Makes sense to me

[sfox7076]

Nothing to do with Vapor hating, just a case of ethics, values and good business practice.  I wish Vapor well and believe the product is probably very good. 
If you look at the resale value of other speaker manufacturers here, Salk etc, they get a considerably higher resale margin - 60% plus.  My comments are related to the deflated value of used Vapor speakers being attributed to persistent customer issues related to delayed delivery schedules and non-communication with customers once money is sent.  A price increase isn't going to attract new customers, to build confidence back up in the brand timely supply is going to be the key, I would offer new customers an incentive such as escrow to allay any concerns related to delivery performance.

It's also the same shill's that jump in when anyone posts less than positive, similar pattern with SP Tech/Aether Audio.

Escrow's are tough and require an agent.  Anything else is a lie... 

I have no issue with Vapor speakers.  I was observing that a great product is far from enough in the current economy.  I wish it were.  Customer service and attention to detail are the sole ways to do it.  I think we are moving with diverging patterns currently.  We will have bespoke items on the one side and total online mass market on the other.  There will be little to no in between over time.  Just as an example, I am seeing it with jeans here in NYC.  There are tons of jeans makers.  Athletic pants (think yoga pants) have put a huge wedge into the market.  Most of the boutique jeans makers here are getting squeezed.  However, a few brands offer custom versions of jeans where you go in and they make them for you on site for a princely sum.  They seem to be doing fine or growing.  Others, not so much.  Yoga pants and Amazon et al. has cut too far in to their margin.  They are dying.  Vapor's model  is obviously the bespoke method.  Except when you go in to get your fancy jeans, they pour you a glass of something.  They let you spin through the bolts of fabric and tell you all about each.  It's not something I enjoy (I am fine getting my mass market Levi's), but my wife sure does.  For speakers, I think it is the same deal.  Bespoke makers I have dealt with have been amazing on customer service.  That's what one needs to do in this area.  One bad review is all one needs to see to not purchase a product...  Long drawn out threads are even worse.  Again, this is an observation generally and not directed at Vapor.  Their speakers sound great and I could see myself owning some if I had a big enough room and I was picking them up used.  Depressed resale value is a consumer opportunity.

Shawn

[fex02]

Despite all of the verbiage about Vapor, In my opinion , i have not heard better at any price. I have listened to systems in far excess of 6 figures, and have yet  to come home and say, i wish had that system.
I bought the art of the speaker , not the theorectical value of a bunch of reviewers ,marketing guru's and audio want-a- be's.
Dealing with artist's can be trying.I have had an artist on the payroll the last 7 months and they don't follow time in a linear fashion as the rest of the world. Ryan, Pete , and ED's  genius lies in building the perfect speaker.Call me a fan boy or what ever , but , when i turn on Aron Copeland and hear cymbals with some much air between them ,its incredible. I can't believe i was lucky enough to drive to St Louis 2 years ago and meet Ryan , and have the intelligence to order my Joule's.Please feel free to stop buy, be amazed , and enjoy them.I am in west central florida !

[dbx]

have the intelligence to order my Joule's.Please feel free to stop buy, be amazed , and enjoy them.I am in west central florida !

Is there any chance you are moving to New York anytime soon ???

[Pete Schumacher]

I mean, if I were a potential Vehement customer I'd look up Vapor and then probably order a Vapor speaker instead... $16k for the Vehement Brezza vs $14k for Vapor Derecho? I'll take the latter!

If you want to wait, you can order Derecho instead.  The Vehement model shown above has tapered transmission line bass (which Derecho does not), and uses the custom midrange intended for Derecho.  The two are nearly identical in performance.  The Vehement Brezza Forte actually has one of the smoothest final system responses we've ever measured.  They are a lot of speaker for the money, and they won't have the wait time you'd experience with ordering something like Derecho.

Derecho is probably going to be redesigned soon too, because of the Vehement model.  Ryan and I talked about upgrading the woofers to the wonderful Audio Technology Flexunits (Joule, Perfect Storm) and the mids to either ATs or Accuton, to have Derecho follow in the footsteps of the other models with a "black" and "white" version.  When that happens, you'll see the price hit at least $20K.

[jtwrace]

The Vehement Brezza Forte actually has one of the smoothest final system responses we've ever measured. 

That's great, can we see those measurements?  Polar plots too?

[Pete Schumacher]

That's great, can we see those measurements?  Polar plots too?

Haven't run polar plots.  But because they are LR2 throughout, they're likely very nice.  Nimbus black, which also boasts LR2 acoustic crossovers, had the smoothest in-room response that Steve Nugent ever experienced in his many years of doing shows.  Better than the likes of TAD which Steve used.  Same tweeter, same XO points, just different mid and woofers.  The RAAL design offers very smooth off axis response that matches directivity of the midrange very well.

I'll see if I can get the resulting plot.  It's on Ryan's computer.  On axis, it was +-1dB from 200Hz on up.  Below that, room effects dominate.

[DaveC113]

If you want to wait, you can order Derecho instead.  The Vehement model shown above has tapered transmission line bass (which Derecho does not), and uses the custom midrange intended for Derecho.  The two are nearly identical in performance.  The Vehement Brezza Forte actually has one of the smoothest final system responses we've ever measured.  They are a lot of speaker for the money, and they won't have the wait time you'd experience with ordering something like Derecho.

Derecho is probably going to be redesigned soon too, because of the Vehement model.  Ryan and I talked about upgrading the woofers to the wonderful Audio Technology Flexunits (Joule, Perfect Storm) and the mids to either ATs or Accuton, to have Derecho follow in the footsteps of the other models with a "black" and "white" version.  When that happens, you'll see the price hit at least $20K.

I'm sure you guys will do fine whatever direction you go. 

I'd still spend $20k on an upgraded Derecho (or Nimbus) vs the Brezza. The curved stacked-ply construction is nice on the Derecho. I guess it won't matter to you too much if the Vehement line points people to the Vapor line. 

[Pete Schumacher]

I'm sure you guys will do fine whatever direction you go. 

I'd still spend $20k on an upgraded Derecho (or Nimbus) vs the Brezza. The curved stacked-ply construction is nice on the Derecho. I guess it won't matter to you too much if the Vehement line points people to the Vapor line.

You're different than many who simply don't want to wait.

And Vehement will also be coming out with a "top shelf" lineup using the same drivers we use in the Vapor line, including a unique baffle mounting for the RAAL tweeters and enclosures that use no wood product at all.

[toddc2]

You're different than many who simply don't want to wait.

It might help if you could honestly answer how long the wait will be.