Can you hear a difference?

sys1 · « **Reply #20 on:** 7 Dec 2004, 05:27 pm »

I think this quote from the report say it all:

"Given the quality of equipment and recordings, the system sounded wonderful no matter what power cords were used."

If your system sounds good, stop worrying about what $2500. power cords might do to improve it. Buy more music.

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #21 on:** 7 Dec 2004, 05:49 pm »

Years ago a friend of mine switched a bunch of power cords for me on his Levinson power amp. The one that delivered the most dynamics was a stock Belden IEC line cord. The rest delivered more noise, less dynamics etc.etc. The rest of the line cords were the latest and greatest from the reviewers at the time.
Let's just say the experience did not enamor me to "exotic designer line cords", or the critics who wrote those glowing reviews.
d.b.

jgubman · « **Reply #22 on:** 7 Dec 2004, 06:11 pm »

I'm a member of that BAAS group and participated in an earlier "Hone your listening skills" event in the same room with the same equipment. Unfortunately, I couldn't make it to the blind cable test.

At the event I did participate in, we tested things like Beldini ultra clairifiers, swapping out transports (Theta Carmen II vs. an APL modded Sony 7700), amp changes (JC-1s vs. Red Planet Labs) and of course switching out power cords. I'd have to say that the difference between the transports and the differences between the amps were very, very easy to hear.

With the Beldini products and power cord changes, the differences were very subtle and the biggest factors in my mind were a) fatigue and b) unfamiliar music.

It was very fatiguing to sit around with 10 other people while a lot of cords were being changed. The power cord swaps took about 10 minutes, and several times the Theta transport or the Red Planet Labs amp would be acting after being unplugged and repowered (the Theta went into some weird open-drawer, shut-drawer loop that couldn't be ended and the amp had some very disturbing modulation problem). This really cut into the fun of the experience and made it more of a chore.

Also, we were limited to 90-second selections and then the swapping process would start again. While this was good for the obvious and quick swaps (like the transport and amp changes), it didn't really let the listeners settle into the music. When doing the more subtle changes, like the Beldini and power cord changes I found myself questioning if I was hearing a difference or just hearing new things in the music. I walked away thinking that I'd want to live with the power cords for awhile and then swap them out.

Chairguy John, you should join the group, they put on some good events. Next up is, you guessed it, a listening event at Brians!!

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #23 on:** 7 Dec 2004, 06:28 pm »

Since you where there for the testing, I would like to ask you a question. Did any of you go through any training before you started the DBT's? If so, what training did Manny give you?
d.b.

jgubman · « **Reply #24 on:** 7 Dec 2004, 06:38 pm »

I wasn't there for the DBT, I was there about 3 weeks earlier for a "training" and general listening session. The session I went to was not blind and after each component swap the group as a whole discussed what differences they heard, if any. Jason, the Secrets reviewer and host of the event, led the discussion.

I believe at the blind event started with the participants listening to a selection with each group of cords without the curtain and discussing it. Then the curtain went up and the actual test began.

Jason has a good write up of the session here:
http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html

DVV · « **Reply #25 on:** 7 Dec 2004, 10:23 pm »

Quote from: Dan Banquer

Years ago a friend of mine switched a bunch of power cords for me on his Levinson power amp. The one that delivered the most dynamics was a stock Belden IEC line cord. The rest delivered more noise, less dynamics etc.etc. The rest of the line cords were the latest and greatest from the reviewers at the time.
Let's just say the experience did not enamor me to "exotic designer line cords", or the critics who wrote those glowing reviews.
d.b.

Why does this sound sooooooo familiar?

Actually, I have found one thing that does make a difference EVERY time, and EVERY time for the better (although not always in exactly the same way, or to exactly the same extent), and that is using monocrystal OFC power cables.

Again, this is no brainer, it has been known for say 30+ years that when molecules of ANY conductor are aligned, it will conduct better, meaning its internal impedance WILL decrease, and more often than not, its inductance and capacitance will also tend to decrease. And this is not the same thing as if using still fatter cable.

But one does not need to pay extravagant amounts for it. Taiwan's Neotech makes it at a reasonable (though not doughnut) price; I wish I could give you a link, but I buy mine from a local supplier.

It will deliver tighter and better controlled bass, with more weight, it will clean up the midrange and the treble, and it will afford you more speed, at least subjectively. I repeat, this happens EVERY time, but as ever, the absolute benefits are also influenced by the equipment itself.

And it will do this across the board, from a lowly Marantz integrated to an exalted Levinson. Not to even mention tubes.

But failing that, just buy some thick copper cable, MADE for passing all those amps through.

Cheers,
DVV

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #26 on:** 7 Dec 2004, 10:38 pm »

DVV:

Quote

Taiwan's Neotech makes it at a reasonable (though not doughnut) price; I wish I could give you a link, but I buy mine from a local supplier.

Found list... http://www.heavymoon.co.jp/hifi/neotech/ac/index.html

JoshK · « **Reply #27 on:** 7 Dec 2004, 10:40 pm »

I've known of Neotech for some time but I have zero idea on how to buy it. Anyone have any hints?

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #28 on:** 7 Dec 2004, 10:46 pm »

Quote from: JoshK

I've known of Neotech for some time but I have zero idea on how to buy it. Anyone have any hints?

What about Jay S...he may have a connection. Send Jay a PM.

PhilNYC · « **Reply #29 on:** 8 Dec 2004, 01:11 am »

I've got a lot of friends and relationships in Taiwan. What's the scoop with Neotech? It looks like they use the same copper that Audience, Harmonic Tech, and Acoustic Zen (among others) uses...are they supposed to be similar to any of those?

audioengr · « **Reply #30 on:** 8 Dec 2004, 01:53 am »

Quote from: warnerwh

There is no doubt that if there is any sonic differences in power cables they are subtle at best. Switch them in and out and see for yourselves. For what alot of power cords cost a room can be treated acoustically at least somewhat, something there's no doubt about audibly. The wire thing has gone way over the edge of reality.

Warner - next time you come out to central Oregon, drop in at Black Butte Ranch and I will be happy to demo some power cords for you.

warnerwh · « **Reply #31 on:** 8 Dec 2004, 02:16 am »

Quote from: audioengr

Quote from: warnerwh
There is no doubt that if there is any sonic differences in power cables they are subtle at best. Switch them in and out and see for yourselves. For what alot of power cords cost a room can be treated acoustically at least somewhat, something there's no doubt about audibly. The wire thing has gone way over the edge of reality.

Warner - next time you come out to central Oregon, drop in at Black Butte Ranch and I will be happy to demo some power cords for you.

I'd be more than happy to hear a difference between power cords. Actually I use diy AA cords on my preamp and amp. Thanks

WerTicus · « **Reply #32 on:** 8 Dec 2004, 04:15 am »

Quote from: PhilNYC

FWIW, the speakers in the test are the Talon Audio Khorus X (MSRP $18000). According to the Talon website, here are the drivers they use:
Talon 10"W/Scanspeak 1-1/2"TW/Audax 1"ST

Yeah they are probably good enough to hear a difference with. What a rip off though!

JoshK · « **Reply #33 on:** 8 Dec 2004, 04:56 am »

Quote from: PhilNYC

I've got a lot of friends and relationships in Taiwan. What's the scoop with Neotech? It looks like they use the same copper that Audience, Harmonic Tech, and Acoustic Zen (among others) uses...are they supposed to be similar to any of those?

It is the same copper, they either have rights to manufacture it or they bought the rights or something like that but it is the same copper UPOCC, done the same way. They are more or less the sole OEM of that type of copper from what I understand.

brady2004 · « **Reply #34 on:** 8 Dec 2004, 05:31 am »

Try this. Parallel a 600pF capacitor. Line and neutral. Leave the ground line be. I tried this in a DIY and they did sound better than (1) the generic AC cord that came with the amp; (2) a Powerburst and (3) a Shunyata (can't recall model)

denverdoc · « **Reply #35 on:** 8 Dec 2004, 05:44 am »

Interesting thread and one that parallels a recent one re amp sound diferences over at AA. What strikes me most is the ardent disavowal of results that appear to be gathered painstakingly and with no preformed agenda. In other words, more like religious refutation, than an honest embrace of results which have practical bearing on how we spend our audio dollars. Most of us (with the exception of the guy who can actually afford to spend such an outlandish sum of money for what others consider as a speaker budget) can rejoice that it is not the lack of the right AC line cord that keeps us at the threshold of audio nirvana, like some Dicksen orphan, peering in from the cold at the delight and merriment of a well heeled household's XMAS.

For my own experience, bought some nice Classe Monoblocks a while back, equipped with what I thought were outrageously priced cords of 400/channel. Of course at 10k, one expects attention to detail. First thing I did was downgrade to the 2.00 cord that comes with a low cost computer--no difference, course i was pushing 40 and listening thru Dunlavy Sc-IV's. So to those of you who criticize verious aspects of this study, age, metal tweeters, internal amp wiring (jeez, look at an inductor in a speaker some day), give these guys credit. They had a lotta game for putting their guesses to the record, and until those of you who gripe about the shortcomings in this study, put yourself to the test, with your own systems and most revealing software, for crying out loud, shut up and listen--may save you some money!
JS

WerTicus · « **Reply #36 on:** 8 Dec 2004, 06:16 am »

its interesting you say that brandy2000 because I have a similar trick done on my powercord... but when i took it to listen to in a reallllllly hi end system... the thicker cord with no tweeks still sounded obviously better.

Actually i find that with a lot of the tricks and tweeks that improve my stereo, when i try them at WAR audio with their 60k + system it either does nothing or makes it worse.

a BIG example most people here will be able to relate to: Green inking cd's... I green ink a cd and my denon 2900 sounds a HEAP better.

I take the same cd to the $18,000 bel canto player and the difference between the same disc and a greened version of it is so minor it would be nearly impossible to say there is even a difference! Though pat says he thinks the original has more air and his ears are pretty golden as far as that goes

(he is also twice my age)

go figure

DVV · « **Reply #37 on:** 8 Dec 2004, 07:18 am »

Quote from: PhilNYC

I've got a lot of friends and relationships in Taiwan. What's the scoop with Neotech? It looks like they use the same copper that Audience, Harmonic Tech, and Acoustic Zen (among others) uses...are they supposed to be similar to any of those?

I think it's the other way around - they are using Neotech's products. I had their catalog around somewhere, and it showed cables which awfully looked like some "designer" cables. I have a stretch of UK's Ecosse power cable and it looks EXACTLY like Neotech's.

Also, I distinctly remember the catalog as reporting that for $10K, you can have whichever cable you like, in whatever color you wanted from a wide selection, and with your writing on it. Depending on which cable you choose, that could be a lot of cable, but could also be monocrystal pure silver cable as well.

So, all I need is $10K to get some DVV Monocrystal HJF (High Jerk Factor) Linear Phase Extra Bandwidth audiophile cable.

Cheers,
DVV

DVV · « **Reply #38 on:** 8 Dec 2004, 07:27 am »

Try:

http://www.neotechcable.com

I think that's it, though I had some problems connecting fully.

Cheers,
DVV

WerTicus · « **Reply #39 on:** 8 Dec 2004, 09:47 am »

this is the cable that WAR audio in perth use (i believe)... they are the only manufacturer that make such a type and they sound better than anything else in existance apparently... Not that iv listened, but Pat has - and is qualified to know what he is talking about

very interesting looking at the crystal structure vs ofc.