[OZZIOZZI]

I recently acquired a Mac mini late 2009 2.26 Gb, 2Gb RAM 160Gb Internal SATA HDD. It was erased and reformatted with osx 10.11 El Capitan. I have used Macs for many years and to say I HATE El Capitan and its version of iTunes would be an understatement. I have ripped many CDs and downloaded HD music files on an older mac mini which recently died. I have my music files on external 500Gb HDD so they are safe and backed up.

I just don't like the look, feel and organisation of menus, view options etc on iTunes 12.2. I was very happy with iTunes 10.6. Which fulfilled all my iTunes wishes.

QUESTION is there a way to run later iTunes in "classic" mode so it looks like older versions. Failing this, can I reload OSX  10.8 Mountain Lion with its own version of ITunes? Am I the only person who does not want or need the latest OSX just to play music?

Cheers
Ozziozzi

[dB Cooper]

Generally speaking, OSX prevents reverting to an earlier version once updated. It may be possible to 'cheat' by partitioning and installing 10.8 in the partition. And no, you are far from the only person who hates the current iteration of itunes (although I heard there are interface changes coming). There are also other media players/managers like Plex worth looking into. Most of those also support other formats like the very popular FLAC, which Apple stubbornly refuses to support. itunes isn't the only option.

[OZZIOZZI]

Thanks dB
 it's good to know I am not alone in my dislike. Apple support suggested I should be able to boot from external HD or USB stick holding earlier OS (10.6-->10.8 installation package) erase internal HD and then either install 10.6-8) . Your idea about partitioning might just help if I get the "granny state" messages from Apple about reinstalling over newer os. I plan to slim down internal drive leaving only apps like Safari, iTunes, notes etc. so I should have enough space for two OS partitions on 160Gb.  I will look into Plex. I tried BitPerfect on my macbook air and, frankly, couldnt hear much difference on good headphones or amp and speakers. I like the iTunes ease of ripping CDs (apple lossless with error correction usually) and the integration with Freegal downloads from my local library. Just don't like the way I end up with duplications and lost files in iTunes database when I change from one computer to another or one external HD to another.

Is it best to keep player and OS internal and music files only on external HD, preferably Firewire external drive and USB or optical output to external DAC. My particular external DAC will handle higher sample rate 192/24 on optical compared with USB 96/24. Some of my downloaded files are native 192/24. What is the feeling on this forum about upsampling all music files that are lower than this. Is it worthwhile?

Any other advice appreciated. (Apart from increasing RAM, thats the reason my old mini died  )
Ozziozzi

PS the reason for 10.8 is that I sometimes sync iphone and ipad which require 10.8 otherwise i would be happy with earlier version.

[dB Cooper]

The workaround of replacing the HD with a blank HD that has had your preferred OS installed on it (maybe). Or ditch MacOS entirely and run Linux on it (you'd have to get your hands a little dirtier, but it would work.)

There is an app called BeaTunes that is supposed to help with organization kerfluffles like missing or duplicated tracks, but I don't have personal experience.
One of the reasons Apple's refusal to support FLAC annoys me is that AAC and ALAC share the same file extension, so I can't readily tell a lossless from a lossy version in Finder just by looking at the file extension, while it is easy to tell AAC from FLAC this way.

iTunes has become a Rube Goldberg 'charlie foxtrot' (you vets know what that means).

[OZZIOZZI]

I have just partitioned mac mini HD into two approx 80Gb partitions. Now I just have to find copy of 10.8 boot//install disk or USB stick. Any ideas on whether this should work? Dual boot macs seem to be common.

I will investigate Beatunes. in the past I have just used various apps to convert FLAC to WAV or ALAC if I really MUST have that song. Otherwise I just shrug. Is charlie foxtrot similar to SNAFU? I would say that iTunes has become more like those TV advertised magic peeler/chopper/grater/slicers that can do everything if you can follow the instructions Of course, all Apple apps are so intuitive that no-one needs instructions...right

As for replacing the HD in a mac mini. Been there done that, never again.

Ozziozzi

[OZZIOZZI]

In case anyone is interested it IS  possible to partition internal HD of Mac mini (in my case 2X ~80Gb ). Do this with existing OS on drive, in my case 10.11. Then I cloned 10.5.8 from another older computer which was an iMac core2duo to an external Firewire and USB 640Gb WD. I tried to boot from this drive plugged into mac mini core2duo , but late 2009 model. This did not work. Then I used the mac mini version of carbon copy cloner to copy this external drive OS on to a partition on the mac mini internal HD. Then I opened System preferences and set the partition containing 10.5.8 as the startup volume. Then performed a restart and mini rebooted into 10.5.8. I had to set the location of my iTunes Media folder which was on an external HD and it worked. I am now listening to iTunes version 10.6.3 and it works fine.

Must say the process was not simple, but it works if anyone is stuck with new version of iTunes or OSX that they dislike. If I need to sync iPhone5 or iPad4 I may need to reboot into 10.11. El Capitan--not elegant, but it works.

Ozziozzi

[KR500]

I agree with your experience

I just don't like the look, feel and organisation of menus, view options etc on iTunes 12.2. I was very happy with iTunes 10.6. Which fulfilled all my iTunes wishes./quote]

[OZZIOZZI]

KR500 I just read your earlier post about ElKapitan. I forgot to mention in my earlier post that EK would crash when I tried to boot with USB external drives plugged in. Mini booted fine with Firewire drive plugged in.
Once I downgraded to 10.5.8 all USB drives were recognised and mini would boot up with them already plugged in.

I tend to stay with OS that has been around for a few years eg my Macbook Air runs original Mavericks fine even though I occasionally get frustrated by its user interface.

Ozziozzi

[KR500]

The El Kapitan problems eventually got resolved at Apple but I recently went to using my original 2009 mini with Snow Leopard in the living room with a built in replacement 500 GB HD and edited my library down to something more manageable . It is working well with a Bifrost DAC > tube amp and short cables with the TV as monitor and using a wireless logitech 2 button mouse . The Apple TV remote can move tracks forward or backward .
Before I was using a 2015 mini with larger hard drive and backup drives with a long Ethernet cable to Apple TV> toslink output but the all AIFF  library was about 37,000 songs with some retrieval delays and some songs stuttering or not found . Not bad , but just enough to be annoying . The media/music switch by Apple long ago kind of adds confusion to older HD backups through the years. I had Bitperfect on the newer mini

[OZZIOZZI]

Re El Kapitan, the guy who sold me late 2009 mac mini + apple kb + mouse (dell with scroll wheel, which is handy for scrolling thru iTunes ) + WD 640 Gb external Firewire HD had wiped the internal and external HDs and may have used old version of EK to reformat Internal HD.

I am using 24" LCD TV with VGA input for screen with mini display port to VGA adaptor--nice picture. External HD is 500Gb in MiniStack enclosure connected via Firewire while DAc is via USB. One thing I am looking for is SHORT ~ 1ft long Firewire 800 cable and  USB cable to connect to Ministack and DAC to make connections neater. I can make RCA cables, but FW and USB are tricky to solder.

I have used handheld Apple Remote (limited functions though) and Remote App on iPad ( much better for controlling iTunes ) for controlling playback and have tried bluetooth (Logitech transmitter and receiver) and Apple TV for streaming to tvs and stereo amp/speakers setups around house. I can use TOSlink optical out to DAC. I ****THINK**** optical provides slightly better sound than USB connection to DAC, but it is a close call.

Ozziozzi

[Atlplasma]

Why not just install JRiver? I think it gives you a lot of flexibility in handling your media.

[OZZIOZZI]

I installed BitPerfect on my Macbook, but frankly couldn't hear much difference between that and normal sound through headphones plugged into Headphone socket of Macbook or played through external USB DAC/headphone amp.

 Software players such as JRiver *are* worth checking out, but I don't think iTunes is bad as either a database or player, especially the earlier versions and if you are happy with the rest of your reproduction chain. I DO take the precautions of deleting any unnecessary apps, turning off bluetooth, wireless, spotlight etc as suggested by various experts. Again I haven't found much difference with Safari or Firefox running in the background for downloading music and saving in iTunes. I do believe that the less drain on memory and CPU time will improve playback, so I usually only run iTunes by itself and set all system preferences so that iTunes is virtually in "hog mode" anyway.

 It  may be that other players are better SQ wise or functionally, but it probably takes a very high quality system to realise any difference compared with iTunes. You also have to be careful of "confirmation bias" where you expect something to be an improvement because you have made the effort and expense of installing it.

As long as I cannot detect any distortion or problems loading songs and I can hear micro-details such as fingers on guitar or bass strings, Oscar Peterson mumbling in the background, audience noises at live concerts or room ambience I am happy. I have achieved a high S/N ratio where quiet parts of dynamic recordings are virtually "black".  I firmly subscribe to the old adage, "if it aint broke, why fix it?". I believe that the weakest links in most systems are the loudspeaker and listening room.

Another variable is the quality of original recording and mastering. Here the old adage for CDs, borrowed from IT-speak is GIGO garbage in garbage out. For example I have one CD recording that has SO much reverberation that it sounds like it was recorded inside a glass-lined bathroom. The musicians are fine, but the recording is sh*t and unlistenable. No music player is going to improve that.

 One interesting discovery I have made is that some ripped tracks sound better than the CD played on the same computer, DAC, amp and speakers. That could be due to ripping CDs with error correction turned on or reduction in jitter by HD or memory playback instead of spinning (possibly scratched or off-center hole) optical disk. I wonder if anyone else has heard this improvement.

Good luck with everyone's search for audio nirvana I think it is time for me to enjoy the music rather than obsessing over possible improvements to my system.

Ozziozzi

[zoom25]

Get Audirvana Plus. It runs version 2.2.5 and you can have a library with all formats. I'm on Mountain Lion 10.8.5. I'm running it on a Late 2009 iMac. It sounds better than all the other players I've tried on Mac. I run everything in WAV with tagging done via XLD. Top notch combo. Additionally, you can also load up AudioUnits like Sonarworks for your headphones in Audirvana Plus.

[OZZIOZZI]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. When I get time I will have a look at other players. Please see my earlier post (edited today) for my rationale for leaving things as they are for the moment. I am using OS X 10.5.8 as that was the easiest for me to load and it was free as I already had it. Again, when I have more time, I will look into installing 10.8.5  as some players require later OS.
Ozziozzi