Why the hate?

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srb

Re: Why the hate?
« Reply #40 on: 16 Jun 2017, 06:20 pm »
That said, there is "douchebaggery" among all makes and models of cars. But high performance cars tend to have the largest share.

I was driving the other day and in a one mile stretch between stoplights a tweaked out mini-truck was ridiculously high speed lane changing.  You know, where the car in front of them is braking and if they don't cut into the next lane, there will be an accident.  Three times in that one mile I thought I might be involved in a pile up and fiery explosions.

The truck came to a stop at the red light in post position.  I was several cars back in another lane.  When a police cruiser pulled up to the light two positions back in the right lane, I had a feeling the truck was unaware of him.

When the light turned green, the truck floored it and wildly, uncontrollably fishtailed back and forth across the intersection.  Where's a cop when you need one?  Right there, baby!  Sweet!  8)

Steve

rajacat

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Re: Why the hate?
« Reply #41 on: 16 Jun 2017, 06:49 pm »
Well first you have to drink the kool aid and believe in man made global warming. Then, you can go out and buy a Prius.......

Shakey
Hmm... I guess that 95% of the scientific community has drunk the Kool-Aide. :roll: Now if you don't believe in the scientific method, you're going to believe whatever is most convenient for you but any claim to objectivity is thereby forfeited.

Shakeydeal

Re: Why the hate?
« Reply #42 on: 16 Jun 2017, 07:02 pm »
Hmm... I guess that 95% of the scientific community has drunk the Kool-Aide. :roll: Now if you don't believe in the scientific method, you're going to believe whatever is most convenient for you but any claim to objectivity is thereby forfeited.

That is a false narrative arrived at by meticulously selecting certain surveys using murky terminology. Believe what you will, but we'll put it to rest now in this inappropriate forum.

Shakey

Photon46

Re: Why the hate?
« Reply #43 on: 16 Jun 2017, 07:57 pm »
Wow, this diatribe is remarkable. The hybrid automobile is quite a cultural lightning rod for those of a certain mindset. One of my cars is a Lexus ct200h which is basically a Prius in a prom dress. I'm not trying to make any statements about global warming. Rather, I just can't stand the ubiquitous SUV automotive form, I commute 75 miles a day on congested roads, and I like hatchback cars with personality that get great gas mileage. I bought a two year old model that had depreciated enough to offset most of the price premium for buying hybrid technology. It tracks a curvy road with precision and gusto (unlike a Prius) and though it's sure not fast - I still am out ahead of most cars when accelerating from a light. Not that that's any indicator of speed, it's just that here in Florida most people are either old and slow or so distracted by their cell phones they're reluctant to get on with the business of driving once the light turns green. Driving on I-4 (the most dangerous stretch of interstate highway in the USA) I don't really see too many Prius drivers acting like you guys describe in other areas. Every conceivable type of vehicle is in the left lane driving too slow and blocking traffic. I doubt I would buy a ct200h as my only car as it's too small and a little too noisy on really long distance drives, but it's a better quality and very reliable alternative to most commuter cars.

I agree that it is hard to justify the economics of purchasing a hybrid drive train in a new car. I suppose there's no way to put a price tag on feeling righteous :lol: In Toyota's and Lexus's lineups, there's a stiff price premium for the hybrid drive train that would take a great deal of driving to offset with increased fuel savings (at today's USA fuel prices.) With fuel being cheap now, Americans don't want to buy hybrids and you can buy two year old clean used cars just off lease for little more than equivalent all gasoline models here in Florida. That situation would probably change should market forces change and the price of petrol rise back to the four dollar a gallon range.

DaveC113

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Re: Why the hate?
« Reply #44 on: 16 Jun 2017, 11:02 pm »
Wow, this diatribe is remarkable. The hybrid automobile is quite a cultural lightning rod for those of a certain mindset. One of my cars is a Lexus ct200h which is basically a Prius in a prom dress. I'm not trying to make any statements about global warming. Rather, I just can't stand the ubiquitous SUV automotive form, I commute 75 miles a day on congested roads, and I like hatchback cars with personality that get great gas mileage. I bought a two year old model that had depreciated enough to offset most of the price premium for buying hybrid technology. It tracks a curvy road with precision and gusto (unlike a Prius) and though it's sure not fast - I still am out ahead of most cars when accelerating from a light. Not that that's any indicator of speed, it's just that here in Florida most people are either old and slow or so distracted by their cell phones they're reluctant to get on with the business of driving once the light turns green. Driving on I-4 (the most dangerous stretch of interstate highway in the USA) I don't really see too many Prius drivers acting like you guys describe in other areas. Every conceivable type of vehicle is in the left lane driving too slow and blocking traffic. I doubt I would buy a ct200h as my only car as it's too small and a little too noisy on really long distance drives, but it's a better quality and very reliable alternative to most commuter cars.

I agree that it is hard to justify the economics of purchasing a hybrid drive train in a new car. I suppose there's no way to put a price tag on feeling righteous :lol: In Toyota's and Lexus's lineups, there's a stiff price premium for the hybrid drive train that would take a great deal of driving to offset with increased fuel savings (at today's USA fuel prices.) With fuel being cheap now, Americans don't want to buy hybrids and you can buy two year old clean used cars just off lease for little more than equivalent all gasoline models here in Florida. That situation would probably change should market forces change and the price of petrol rise back to the four dollar a gallon range.

My issue is if you actually do the math and figure out the energy invested combined with environmental factors inherent in battery production + all the other parts required then hybrids may not seem so nice anymore.

Also, if you compare a hybrid vs a typical fuel-efficient small car it doesn't work out so well. For example my friend gets 40 mpg out of his sub $20k Honda Fit. That's not far off hybrid mpg, it's much less expensive and has no batteries to replace.

As far as Prius drivers (not saying I agree, but it is funny)...

http://southpark.cc.com/clips/155193/thanks

RDavidson

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Re: Why the hate?
« Reply #45 on: 17 Jun 2017, 01:39 am »
Yep. Buy a Prius because it fits your personal needs. Don't buy one because you think it will save the planet. It won't...even if every driver on the planet got one. It is merely an alternative fuel vehicle with some neat tech and other comforts. If that's your thing, that's cool. The rest is 100% marketing and agenda. Please don't spread it.
« Last Edit: 17 Jun 2017, 04:43 am by RDavidson »

santacore

Re: Why the hate?
« Reply #46 on: 17 Jun 2017, 04:32 am »
I have a Prius, because I commute 80 miles a day when working. It's definitely not a fun car to drive, but it gets the job done. I had a Lexus IS350 prior to this, and it was a blast to drive, when not in traffic. That stiff suspension got old quick, not to mention the premium gas, maintenance, and frequent tire replacements.

By the way-In Los Angeles I find most of the douche bag drivers are in Audi's.

drphoto

Re: Why the hate?
« Reply #47 on: 17 Jun 2017, 05:20 am »
Hybrid doesn't have to mean slow and boring as shown by Porsche (918), McClaren (P1) Ferrari (LaFerrari) and Bmw (i8) or even all electric as with the Tesla S. I don't care for the Prius because it's looks goofy and is boring, not because it's a hybrid. But I feel the same way about the Camry. Dunno what happened to Toyota. They used to make some damn cool cars, the 2000 GT, the Supra, the Celica GT? But the cars they do make are bombproof, and the people that buy 'em love 'em.

The future is undoubtably electric. The tipping point will come when the battery issue is solved or fuel cell tech perfected. But it will get there. This is just the beginning. Hell when I first started doing digital photo editing, a barely functional computer cost $10K. Now a $2K laptop will smoke it.

Any btw: in that posted pic. That sure looks like a 4th gen Mustang......not a prius.


 

Photon46

Re: Why the hate?
« Reply #48 on: 17 Jun 2017, 11:08 am »
My issue is if you actually do the math and figure out the energy invested combined with environmental factors inherent in battery production + all the other parts required then hybrids may not seem so nice anymore.

Also, if you compare a hybrid vs a typical fuel-efficient small car it doesn't work out so well. For example my friend gets 40 mpg out of his sub $20k Honda Fit. That's not far off hybrid mpg, it's much less expensive and has no batteries to replace.

As far as Prius drivers (not saying I agree, but it is funny)...

http://southpark.cc.com/clips/155193/thanks

Absolutely no argument with any of that, you are 100% correct IMO. At the time I bought the Lexus, there weren't any small 5 door hatchback alternatives that worked for me. The Prius was ugly and was boring to drive, Audi A3's and VW diesel sport wagons were first choices as far the driver experience but suffered from the German propensity for going back home to the dealer for coddling, and the Mazda 3 hatchback was unrefined. I couldn't find an Acura TSX wagon with low miles within a reasonable distance. Thus the Lexus. Were I to buy again today, the first thing I'd look at would be the Subaru Impreza 5 door for the reasons you state and the fact the new get Imprezas are more refined and evolved cars than the previous generation.

Emil

Re: Why the hate?
« Reply #49 on: 17 Jun 2017, 01:51 pm »
That is a false narrative arrived at by meticulously selecting certain surveys using murky terminology. Believe what you will, but we'll put it to rest now in this inappropriate forum.

Shakey

Hey Shakey!
There's that polar bear I was taking about :lol:


JLM

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Re: Why the hate?
« Reply #50 on: 17 Jun 2017, 02:25 pm »
Note: Toyota RAV4 hybrid cost $800 (street pricing) more than a standard RAV4 and it goes from 25 mpg to 32 mpg (according to the EPA). 

Agree that global warming is real and that mankind is contributing.  Also agree that we must look at the total environmental footprint.  Hybrid batteries are very damaging to produce/dispose of.  Fuel cells contain rare earth elements and most hydrogen is currently produced from fossil fuels.  Hopefully new technology can reduce/eliminate these issues.  Obviously fossil fuels are getting harder/more dangerous to obtain/produce/distribute.  Home PV solar that can produce hydrogen without use of fossil fuels would be a wonderful solution.

Current technology cannot support long-term a world wide population of more than 2 billion.  Best if possible to work from a small, sustainable enclosure.  Minimize all travel - especially air travel.  Conserve water.  Infrastructure will be reduced/decentralized to conserve resources.  Reduce face to face interactions to reduce disease transmission.  Eat locally produced goods that uses minimal packaging.  Minimize purchases, especially of rare or energy intensive to produce materials.  Pray that nuclear war never happens.  This is the projected future.
« Last Edit: 17 Jun 2017, 04:10 pm by JLM »

mix4fix

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Re: Why the hate?
« Reply #51 on: 17 Jun 2017, 02:25 pm »
If I ever become transportation czar, I'm banning Prius vehicles...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqY8FUDcATE









...and Prius drivers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JPZskYKUvY

ctviggen

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Re: Why the hate?
« Reply #52 on: 17 Jun 2017, 02:26 pm »
I had a Chevy Volt.  I thought it was a good idea, as I only drove 30 miles, round-trip to and from work.  It's a PHEV (plug in hybrid electric vehicle), with over a 60 mile, all-electric range in summer, but dropping to 40 or so in winter (in CT anyway).  The nice thing is you wouldn't have to get gas probably AT ALL during spring/summer/fall.  That car was totaled and I now have a Honda Civic hatchback.  I get gas every week now.  You don't think that's a big deal, but now I'm out in the cold and wet and heat.  You don't realize how much getting gas sucks until you go for months without getting gas. 

As for global warming, I've not done the research.  However, assume there is no global warming, that it's completely made up (and the "there is no global warming" is not financed heavily by the very people -- the oil producers -- who want that message to be communicated), what would be the detriment to believing there is global warming and taking steps to counteract that?  Too many renewable energy sources?  And if there is a detriment, why wouldn't human ingenuity overcome that detriment?

mix4fix

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Re: Why the hate?
« Reply #53 on: 17 Jun 2017, 02:41 pm »
Agree that global warming is real and that mankind is contributing.  Also agree that we must look at the total environmental footprint.  Hybrid batteries are very damaging to produce/dispose of.  Fuel cells contain rare earth elements and most is currently produced from fossil fuels.  Hopefully new technology can reduce/eliminate these issues.  Obviously fossil fuels are getting harder/more dangerous to obtain/produce/distribute.  Home PV solar that can produce hydrogen without use of fossil fuels would be a wonderful solution.

Current technology cannot support long-term a world wide population of more than 2 billion.  Best if possible to work from a small, sustainable enclosure.  Minimize all travel - especially air travel.  Conserve water.  Infrastructure will be reduced/decentralized to conserve resources.  Reduce face to face interactions to reduce disease transmission.  Eat locally produced goods that uses minimal packaging.  Minimize purchases, especially of rare or energy intensive to produce materials.  Pray that nuclear war never happens.  This is the projected future.

The most important thing to save the world is for people to stop breeding like cockroaches. We shouldn't have to live like hippies to have a normal life.

RDavidson

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Re: Why the hate?
« Reply #54 on: 17 Jun 2017, 02:42 pm »
Current technology cannot support long-term a world wide population of more than 2 billion.  Best if possible to work from a small, sustainable enclosure.  Minimize all travel - especially air travel.  Conserve water.  Infrastructure will be reduced/decentralized to conserve resources.  Reduce face to face interactions to reduce disease transmission.  Eat locally produced goods that uses minimal packaging.  Minimize purchases, especially of rare or energy intensive to produce materials.  Pray that nuclear war never happens.  This is the projected future.

This is the truest thing said so far about global warming with respect to the topic. The core of any human-induced global warming stems from industrialization and globalization. Where do your bananas come from? How do they get from there, to your local store, and to your home? Fundamental changes need to be made in how we live on a larger, broader, scale. Hybrids and electric cars will not save the planet, especially when you think about how all cars are made, where those resources come from, how they're shipped all over the globe, etc. etc. It is 100% a marketing facade. Again, buy a hybrid or electric car because​ it fits your needs. Don't buy one to feel good and falsely try and make others feel guilty for "not saving our future."

Emil

Re: Why the hate?
« Reply #55 on: 17 Jun 2017, 02:48 pm »
Agree that global warming is real and that mankind is contributing.  Also agree that we must look at the total environmental footprint.  Hybrid batteries are very damaging to produce/dispose of.  Fuel cells contain rare earth elements and most is currently produced from fossil fuels.

Wow. So those that believe that they are part of the solution are actually part of the problem? Many will be disappointed. All I want is to   ride in the HOV lane.

And a segment of mankind ( the rich and powerfull) with private jets, yachts, expensive cars and multiple homes that need to be heated and cooled are in the forefront in preaching this religion.
Do they really give a shit or is it about power and control?





Emil

Re: Why the hate?
« Reply #56 on: 17 Jun 2017, 02:52 pm »
The most important thing to save the world is for people to stop breeding like cockroaches. We shouldn't have to live like hippies to have a normal life.


I believe Europe heeded you call. More Europeans die each day then are born resulting in the influx of migrants/refugees that breed like cockroaches.

mix4fix

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Re: Why the hate?
« Reply #57 on: 17 Jun 2017, 02:55 pm »
Agree that global warming is real and that mankind is contributing.  Also agree that we must look at the total environmental footprint.  Hybrid batteries are very damaging to produce/dispose of.  Fuel cells contain rare earth elements and most is currently produced from fossil fuels.

Wow. So those that believe that they are part of the solution are actually part of the problem? Many will be disappointed. All I want is to   ride in the HOV lane.

And a segment of mankind ( the rich and powerfull) with private jets, yachts, expensive cars and multiple homes that need to be heated and cooled are in the forefront in preaching this religion.
Do they really give a shit or is it about power and control?

Power and control.

I give more a damn about the environment by not littering and trying to recycle/dispose appropriately.

mix4fix

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Re: Why the hate?
« Reply #58 on: 17 Jun 2017, 03:02 pm »
The most important thing to save the world is for people to stop breeding like cockroaches. We shouldn't have to live like hippies to have a normal life.


I believe Europe heeded you call. More Europeans die each day then are born resulting in the influx of migrants/refugees that breed like cockroaches.

The migrant problem is a separate issue.

We are talking about too many people, limited resources, and the expectation that "we" have to live like hippies as a result to save the environment.

Photon46

Re: Why the hate?
« Reply #59 on: 17 Jun 2017, 03:18 pm »
The core of any human-induced global warming stems from industrialization and globalization.

Human activities contributing to increased CO2 in the oceans and atmosphere started LONG before industrialization. I've read that roughly 50% of human caused carbon displacement occurred before the industrial revolution because so many forest lands have been converted to other uses. For hundreds of years, the air-gas exchange between the oceans and atmosphere that results in CO2 equilibrium delayed human contributions to atmospheric warming.