[FullRangeMan]

*sound better being defined as perceived as sounding closer to a live event. (Where's Ella?)

Because of the idea created by HP that live music is a suited reference for home audio we are in this state of affairs today, live music may be a reference for pro recording audio, only if the listener is at a orchestra hall center seat near the stage, but it should not be the goal of home audio, the home audio goal must be a pleasant sound to the listener personal taste.

Usually what the audience listen in a show is the result of monsters SS amps with 18'' woofers and plastic horns not to mentions the pro audio xovers, I have spent decades thinking and doing equip purchases base on this misleading concept.

[Wind Chaser]

WD,

Why the hard sell? What’s at stake?

[Bendingwave]

Folks its just all OPINION....take it with a grain of salt...its like all of us comparing each others system and trying to figure out which of our systems is better. Are electrostatic speakers better then conventional cone speakers? Its all "PERSONAL PREFERENCE" predicated on each individuals personal system.

Is witchdr's system the best in the world? Heck no I am sure there are a lot of 2 channel systems that will blow his immersive paradigm system out of the water. LOL

What sounds good to one person might not sound good to another....Some people love the Teckton speakers and some don't, some people just hate Zuaudio and some people love it, once again its all personal preference.

Some people grew up listening to two channel so they prefer that type of sound while others prefer that immersive type of sound....I tend to like BOTH but to say one is better then the other all depends on personal preference as two channel still sounds the most coherent IMO since we only have TWO (2) EARS and are ear lobes face forward so we can pin point more accurately the direction of where sound is coming from as we weren't meant to pin point sounds from the back or else we would have ears like a deer that can rotate 180 degrees or greater. LOL

When Dolby prologic first came out it was suppose to be the next best thing but yet 2 channel systems still remains strong.

Immersive audio is basically Omni directional sound but there are omini speakers that can produce that type of sound and even some 2 channel systems can produce a immersive sound as long as the recording allows it.

I love the sound of DML panels as its sound is very unique unlike other conventional or even electrostatic/planars speakers but that is just my personal preference.

[FullRangeMan]

Its all "PERSONAL PREFERENCE" predicated on each individuals personal system.

+1. Each person brain and ears are only and different and this made home audio a part from other hobbies, all agree the current TVs images are great but this dont happen in audio:

[witchdoctor]

WD,

Why the hard sell? What’s at stake?

Great question, the hard sell is because of what has been annoying me. Look at my first post, what annoys me is mega buck speakers. You know why? They are a necessary evil of trying to recreate music using only two speakers. It's a limp model going in, so vendors try to "repair" the flaws of two channel by making more and more expensive equipment.

Here is the million dollar question, if my claim that immersive audio is better is false why are The Beatles, Pink Floyd, R.E.M.,etc. all putting out immersive mixes when the two channel already exists? Answer, it is because the immersive model is just better. Go read the links I posted, every engineer stated the immersive mix was better. So, I'm not the one "hard selling", I am only a messenger. Go through this thread and see all the opinions I have posted from critics and engineers alike.

Two channel can sound great yes, but take your budget and put it into 9 or 10 speakers not two because, "immersive is just better"!

[witchdoctor]

There's a lot more (or it is less) going on here than just arrogance:

1. Have the criteria for better been stated?
2. Is there agreement amongst parties that the stated criteria are relevant and sufficiently complete?
3. Has adequate evidence been provided to justify the statement?

Without reading the thread and going through all of the links here is my opinion:

1. Sort of can be possible deduced but not really.
2. No
3. I will say yes from what I have deduced in 1.


Here's one of my favorite audio examples which sometimes sends people into a tizzy..

Are vinyl recordings better than MP3 recordings? If the sole criteria is sound quality yes. However if I add additional criteria then it's probably no.

How important is availability of material?
What about portability?
What about support for mobile devices?
Ability to play in a vehicle? OK now's the time to post your vinyl DUAL turntable setup playing in your car while you drive.
Cost of the solution?

Which leads me to my current position on this topic:

When played back on a properly designed and implemented immersive sound system with the listener seated in the optimal playback location, a recording made and mastered for immersive sound will likely sound better* than an equivalent recording made, mastered for, and played back on a properly designed and implemented two channel stereo system with the listener seated in the proper location for optimal stereo playback.

Note I have made no mention of the cost or other requirements such as room size, ceiling height, SAF, or intrusiveness of the setup in the space.

*sound better being defined as perceived as sounding closer to a live event. (Where's Ella?)

Take your speaker budget, divide it by 9 or 10, setup an auro 3D system, it will be BETTER than the two channel/stereo version PLUS it will do movies PLUS it will play 2 channel stereo PLUS you don't need to use oomgowa tower speakers.

So all of that means better. It sounds better, is better value, has better functionality, AND you can still use a turntable ALL GOOD.

If you disagree I started another thread on Rock Star Two Channel Systems for under $200. Great when and where immersive systems aren't practical or for the closed minded flat earth types who refuse to compare for themselves in their own space.

BTW, the auromatic upmixer converts any two channel mix into an immersive mix so no worries about content. I have A/B native auro mixes vs the auromatic upmixer and couldn't tell the difference, they are very close.

[Doublej]

Answer: Because they can make money by doing so!!!

And you still have not defined better.

[witchdoctor]

Answer: Because they can make money by doing so!!!

And you still have not defined better.

You don't want the witchdoctor's definition, you want the experts definition. Go watch the videos I posted of the engineers, they wiull define better in much "better" terms than the witchdoctor. Basically "once you experience immersive audio, you can never go back to two channel."

[Doublej]

Here's and interesting perspective on Dolby Atmos vs. Auro 3D.  Unfortunately it appears that Auro-3D has at least one foot in the grave.

https://rslspeakers.com/dolby-atmos-vs-auro-3d/

[witchdoctor]

Here's and interesting perspective on Dolby Atmos vs. Auro 3D.  Unfortunately it appears that Auro-3D has at least one foot in the grave.

https://rslspeakers.com/dolby-atmos-vs-auro-3d/

See if you can check it out at a movie theater:

https://www.barco.com/en/page/cinema/locator

[RandyH]

I have no doubt that listening to immersive audio is an interesting experience...and probably very sonically satisfying.  It will be interesting to see if is able to establish a foothold where other multichannel formats have not.  Many of these effects that are adopted widely with the Home Theater market seem to have difficulty gaining acceptance among the music only and audiophile market.  No need to refer to skeptics as "flat earthers" or otherwise be dismissive of their doubts.  I was around when hi-fi made the move from mono to stereo.  There were some doubters then too.  Many of the first stereo recordings were gimmicky but after a while recording engineers found ways to make it more elegant.  As the recordings got better and more plentiful the acceptance of stereo seemed to be more organic.  Moving from one channel to two went pretty easily..but every attempt to double the number of speakers (regardless of sound quality) since then seemed to have stalled.  Maybe immersive audio will be different.

[Doublej]

I can check it out in a not too far away movie theater. I just need to figure out what to go see.

I think the prognosis for home is not good. The physical requirements are too onerous for the masses. Atmos has a better chance with its hack of upfiring speakers that can be placed atop an existing speaker arrangement but in the end I don't think most people are willing to design a multi use room around a home theater setup and I suspect the number of dedicated home theater rooms in homes is very small.

[witchdoctor]

I have no doubt that listening to immersive audio is an interesting experience...and probably very sonically satisfying.  It will be interesting to see if is able to establish a foothold where other multichannel formats have not.  Many of these effects that are adopted widely with the Home Theater market seem to have difficulty gaining acceptance among the music only and audiophile market.  No need to refer to skeptics as "flat earthers" or otherwise be dismissive of their doubts.  I was around when hi-fi made the move from mono to stereo.  There were some doubters then too.  Many of the first stereo recordings were gimmicky but after a while recording engineers found ways to make it more elegant.  As the recordings got better and more plentiful the acceptance of stereo seemed to be more organic.  Moving from one channel to two went pretty easily..but every attempt to double the number of speakers (regardless of sound quality) since then seemed to have stalled.  Maybe immersive audio will be different.

I can't say if the audio format will gain mass adoption where SACD or DSD didn't. This thread isn't aimed at Joe Six pack. If you read my first post it is aimed at people who spend $$$ on a pair of speakers. I think anyone who is spending north of $2K on L-R channel speakers should at a minimum audition an immersive system before pulling the trigger. Let Joe Sixpack be happy with a soundbar.

I got a glimmer that the "immersive" format is getting traction last night actually. I just got a big 4K Roku TV for the man cave that has a feature called Dolby Vision. I am on netflix scrolling and I see original content with little dolby vision logos. OK I bite and pick one. Next thing I know I am pulled into this show as not only do the colors pop but the default streaming in my rig is Dolby Atmos, NOT Dolby Digital 5.1. I was bowled over, this is the future of TV, we are all getting "movie theaters" in our living room riding on the shoulders of netflix, amazon, and the other streaming providers. Believe me, once you experience you ain't going back to Kansas.

So, immersive audio is just better and gets a bonus of 4K/Dolby Vision shows in addition to superior upmixed audio, often for LESS han the price of a high end "stereo".

As for "flat earthers" it has two meanings. The obvious is people who are afraid to experience immersive because they are sure the world (as in the two channel world) is the best things can get. YET, they are full of opinions on what they "imagine" immersion is.

The other meaning is literal. Stereo and multi-channel are FLAT, as in a 2D systems on one plane. By adding the height channels "immersive" audio is 3D in auro 3D format. see the pic:

https://360cameraonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Auro-Head-Graphic-2D.jpg

[witchdoctor]

I can check it out in a not too far away movie theater. I just need to figure out what to go see.

I think the prognosis for home is not good. The physical requirements are too onerous for the masses. Atmos has a better chance with its hack of upfiring speakers that can be placed atop an existing speaker arrangement but in the end I don't think most people are willing to design a multi use room around a home theater setup and I suspect the number of dedicated home theater rooms in homes is very small.

You need to check the mix is either atmos, dts-x or auro-3D AND make sure the theater you are in is equipped for it. Multiplexes may have a movie playing in more than one theater and one is properly equipped and one isn't. make sure to call before you go.

[PDR]

Here is the million dollar question, if my claim that immersive audio is better is false why are The Beatles, Pink Floyd, R.E.M.,etc. all putting out immersive mixes when the two channel already exists? Answer.....

The Answer is......because you buy them.
Do you really think there is enough hard liners (like you) out there to
support immersive audio re-releases?......lol, nope.

Like all audio products, etc being sold today its the uneducated masses
that buy this gimmickry, you are an anomaly.

Thank the gods I have immersive multi AND 2ch systems...

[witchdoctor]

Hmmmm, I think having both immersive and two channel systems is the best solution, depending on the room size. The desktop is basically two channel territory but a living area you can do both.
As for my "zeal", "passion" "hard headedness" or whatever it isn't immersive audio per se that got me to start this thread.
It is what I see as the ignorance of the well heeled audiophile who is passionate about SQ but locked into a two channel mind set. If you are dropping more than $2K on speakers you should SHOP. Shop for two channel and SHOP for immersive. Get to a dealer. Use a company like SVS or RSL that let's you audition at home.

Did I discover fire? No. Did the members here even consider immersive audio before there last $$$ speaker purchase? I don't know why I care, I shouldn't, but I do. Talk about WAF for a sec. 10 surround speakers CAN be less obtrusive than 2 towers.
Talk about $$$$. An immersive receiver CAN be less expensive than a 2 channel integrated.
Can an immersive setup do 2 channel? Yes. Can a two channel setup do immersive? Apparently yes from reading the posts here by other members but good luck to those on that quest.

So what "annoys" me is that passionate listeners are plowing fresh money (in piles) into two channel without ever considering or auditioning an immersive setup. remember:

- The witchdoctor prefers it
- SOME critics prefer it
- SOME engineers prefer it
- SOME musicians prefer it

Will you prefer it is the question. AND you ain't gonna know until you try. Just TRY before the next time you reach for your wallet is all I'm saying.

[OzarkTom]

I would like to see blue rays with qsound come out.I am sure it is the not as good as immersive, but you do not have to buy so many speakers. 2 channel will work well.

[Doublej]

The latest entrant in immersive sound.

https://www.sony.com/electronics/360-reality-audio

BTW what ever happened to their SBM.

[Bob in St. Louis]

To be quite honest, it's threads like these that make admin/moderators aggravated, annoyed and frankly regret volunteering to do this job in the first place.
I feel like a cop sitting in his patrol car in the darkened parking lot of a jewelry store watching thugs pace back and forth in front of the glass picture windows.
Just. Waiting. 
But a more accurate analogy might be a child care worker that has room full of toddlers. Some of which have items in their hands, and they've drawn back, like those items in their hands are about to become weapons on the nearest child with his back turned to the wielder.

If you possess the brain power to understand that, AND have the ability and respect and not feel it necessary to make a post, then I thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Because you're truly making my job easier. Thank you.

To those of you simply too stupid, aggressive, or asine to understand my exact meaning, let me put it this way:
- If you have something to say that's snippy, shitty, confrontational, or argumentative..... Just. Don't.   
Please, just SHUT THE FUCK UP.

If you can't back away from your keyboard and separate yourself from the internet and all of its trolls and triggers, then you are actually the majority of the problem.
W.D. happens to be one of the most passionate people I've heard of in the music playback "realm" in a very long time. Can you/we really fault him for that?
I mean, how many of you bitchers that defend 2ch, have heard a rig that W.D. is talking about? (this is a 'mic drop question', since most are too stupid to recognize that fact, so I'm spelling it out since you're too damn dumb to have recognized this simple fact and just like to bitch. Although his troll like subject line was the perfect trigger for the weak minded and got you all in a tizzy).
Whether I, or you, agree with his position is irrelevant. But wave after wave of snippy jabs has worn on me, and seem to make him even more aggressive. (get the picture?).

Fact of the matter is, he's entitled to his opinion, as we all are. But 18 pages of this bullshit has reached my max tolerance level of bullshit.
I've tried a few times to keep the peace and be the referee, to no avail. The owner of this site has tied my hands with regard to weeding out the antagonizing posts, so it's obvious "the site" prefers to do business in this manor (not my choice, but hey, I'm not the boss). That means that members reading the thread a day, or two, or more, get to see all the literary poison and allow it to form their opinion. At that point, they now feel entitled to dump their own collective buckets of negative thoughts on this growing steaming pile of shit.

If you feel that you're immature enough to not have the mindset and willpower to scroll past this thread and find something else that you feel might actually enrich your life, then you are the problem. 
To put it even more simply... for the ultimate dumbasses that aren't sure where they fit into this puzzle, at the beginning of your post, please choose one of the following  numbers that best fits you, your mindset, and your post.

#1 Trolls can't troll unless the weak minded take the bait. (I want to be the weak minded superhero that conquers the troll)
#2 Trolls go silent when the bait isn't taken. (I want to be the silent one to conquer the loud boisterous one)
#3 Passionate people respond with intelligent questions. (I am interested, yet have some questions because I don't understand the technology)

Bob   

[ServerAdmin]

Bendingwave account is Restricted. (See, we do have moderation... )

Seriously folks, we're trying to keep an interesting topic going and the sniping is not helping. If you don't have anything constructive and on-topic to say, stay out of it. (Consider that an official warning.) Thanks.

And PLEASE READ this:

Please click on the --Configure-- button at the bottom of the recent topics list, check the box next to Home Theater and Video, and click Save at the bottom right.