[Nick77]

Great question!  I'm using this to get everything in place to see what lengths I'll ultimately need once everything is in it's final position after measurements.  Then I'll get the awesome DH Labs Q-10 Signature for my speakers.  They're already making some Air Matrix using the Crown Phoenix connectors.

Ahhh I suspected you were just trying to get a rise out of us. 

But it is a relief. Haha

[DaveC113]

Help me understand a bit better as to where you are coming from.  Yes, the M2 does have a slightly wider horizontal dispersion than some other waveguides at 120 degrees.  Are you implying that for this reason a purpose built listening room should be used?

I think the argument should go back to something more polar plot related than anything else.  Without this sort of data your ability to assume what it may sound like in space is a complete crapshoot.  Why? Well, it has been proven many times over that we not only hear the direct sound but reflected sounds.  In the home environment we will likely be dealing with many reflections.  The more alike the indirect or reflections mimic that of the direct sound the better the sound field.  The only positive I see to a narrower dispersion pattern is that of reducing early reflections.  This part has been proven to be more of listener preference for added spaciousness than anything else. 

I would rather have a loudspeaker with known polar data than a speaker with no data in a built room.  I will have to do a few, if any, treatments to a room with good speakers.  I will never be able to fix a loudspeaker based problem with a room based fix.

The way I see it extraordinary lengths have been gone through by JBL to ensure the technical/measured performance of the M2 is as close to perfect as possible. I'd assume anyone interested in these speakers would want to preserve this performance potential as much as possible. The room has an effect on the sound whether you're talking CD or direct radiator type speakers with the direct radiators being effected much more due to their dispersion pattern/polars, but the thought that CD is immune to room effects is absolutely not true, it's just effected less vs a direct radiator. And yes, the M2's wider dispersion means the room has more of an effect... all else being equal the proportion of direct vs reflected sound will contain more reflected sound because of the wider dispersion, thus the room has more of an effect vs a narrower dispersion speaker.

I really have a hard time believing that there is any controversy that what might be the world's most perfectly measuring speaker would be most ideal in a dedicated room. And that some of the perfection might be lost in a non-ideal room. The thought that a dedicated room is completely unnecessary because it's a CD speaker seems kinda ridiculous, the M2 is not immune to the laws of physics. These are simple facts. I am also not disputing that the technical perfection isn't an asset in a non-ideal room, of course it is.

As proof I am sure you can find plenty of examples of M2s in dedicated rooms. Studios wouldn't spend the money on room acoustics if they didn't think it was an advantage.

I just don't think spending the extra cash for the M2 over the 4367 makes much sense unless you want/need the technical perfection the M2 offers, which is going to be partially lost in non-dedicated rooms. There's a lot of complexity and cost added to get the measurements perfect over the 4367, which is a much larger advantage in music/sound production studio than in a personal/home listening room, they are two different things that just happen to overlap. The technical perfection is more of a requirement for production where for listening for personal enjoyment it might not matter quite as much.

Finally, the Harman preference testing for dispersion is confounded by not taking into account listener acclimation. Acclimation is the reason why inexperienced audiophiles prefer their questionable system vs anything they hear at an audio show. We get used to hearing direct radiators and hear 1st reflections as "spaciousness" but without acclimation to a narrower dispersion pattern and allowing the brain to get used to the different presentation the preference testing is confounded and near useless.

I totally agree with your last sentence but we're not talking about speakers with flaws and no data, we're talking about the M2, which is exactly the opposite.

[Kishore]

He's retired from speaker building and is making stained glass art from what I understand.

  I believe that was a one of project- Earl has built 5 additional Summas since then.. let's not generalize  

.......I will never be able to fix a loudspeaker based problem with a room based fix.

I think ideal speaker is great but all this while relevant in isolation, does not make any sense to me since speaker-room interaction and your listening preferences will dictate or negate speaker differentiators- so I agree with both Dave and Joel here.    When I spoke to Charles at length- besides M2, there is   708i/p which would be relevant based on your room/listening distance- such designers who do not sell as is but probe on what is relevant have earned my respect 

Regards,
Kishore

[brj]

I think you guys are closer in your opinions than the thread swirl might make it appear.  As far as I know, you all believe in properly treated rooms and have made efforts to achieve that.  Given that even highly lauded professional acousticians differ on the definition of  a "perfect" room, I think that that concept has proven a distraction, but you all also realize that how you treat a room - and the amount of effort entailed - will vary with the radiation pattern of the speakers selected.

And just as importantly, all systems will always have a weakest link (which is the room more often than not), and one that will change with time as systems, preferences, and understanding evolve.  Having said that, rarely does anyone always pursue the weakest link in their system when making upgrades, often focusing on lessor effectors for the entirely valid reasons of cost, interest, spousal approval factor, knowledge, ability, available time, etc..  Having a pair of speakers that you know will essentially never be your weakest link just means that you can focus on improving those other elements instead as your system evolution continues.

In short, if my preferences and knowledge allow me to identify an end-of-game component, I'd never not pursue it just because my system has other weaker links, because I have every intention of eventually addressing those weaker links as well.  We live in a world of continuums and spectrums subject to an ever-changing array of constraints, and its easy to forget that when drilling down into details and following our latest fancies.

[witchdoctor]

Your using copper clad aluminum lamp cord on a 20k speaker. 

That almost makes me cry, a travesty...

Please do 2 things with your state of the art M2

1) Place each speaker on a pair of Isoacoustic Stands the way Frank Fillipeti places his.
2) Find one of the fine cable vendors here on audiocircle to give you a 30 day audition of some bad ass speaker cables so you can at least do a comparison with that lamp cord crap from amazon.

FWIW I use mapleshade double helix speaker cable on my JBL 230's and they sing beautifully together.

http://mapleshadestore.com/feedback_doublehelixcables.php

[rajacat]

 Maybe waveguides should be designed to fit the room. My listening room has rather odd dimensions. It has a very low ceiling but it's relatively wide and long (7'-9" x 15' x 35'). The waveguide is ~ 8" x 18" which is somewhat proportional to the front wall. If it was round or square it would have more of a problem with the low ceiling.

 

[srb]

2) Find one of the fine cable vendors here on audiocircle to give you a 30 day audition of some bad ass speaker cables so you can at least do a comparison with that lamp cord crap from amazon.

If you read his post after showing off the lovely Amazon Basics speaker cable .....

I'm using this to get everything in place to see what lengths I'll ultimately need once everything is in it's final position after measurements.  Then I'll get the awesome DH Labs Q-10 Signature for my speakers.

[jtwrace]

1) Place each speaker on a pair of Isoacoustic Stands the way Frank Fillipeti places his.

Sitting at a console is very different in terms of height.  When I was at JBL I asked them about the Iso stands..

[JDUBS]

Same drivers, yes.  Different crossover and waveguide.

Oh yes, that's right.

BUT, why bother with a good DAC if you're just going to convert it to digital and back again to analog?

-Jim

[jtwrace]

Oh yes, that's right.

BUT, why bother with a good DAC if you're just going to convert it to digital and back again to analog?

-Jim

You don't think that the quality of data going in has to do with what comes out?  I'm really asking your opinion. 

[witchdoctor]

Sitting at a console is very different in terms of height.  When I was at JBL I asked them about the Iso stands..

You still need to compare for yourself, the stands can be returned

[witchdoctor]

If you read his post after showing off the lovely Amazon Basics speaker cable .....

Whew

[pis99]

A good DAC does indeed affect the sound of the M2. Even though the Crown amps accept both digital and analog inputs, I find good analog input from a decent DAC really shine the M2. I have tried many DACs with M2---Mytek Manhattan, MP-D2, Exasound E28, ANK DAC5.1 etc. My preference always go to analog inputs to Crown itech amp which does not make sense for audio book with two A to D and D to A processes. One possible thing could be I always use HQplayer DSD256 to produce the analog output to crown amps. The crown amp digital input does not do DSD.



 

You don't think that the quality of data going in has to do with what comes out?  I'm really asking your opinion.

[DS-21]

Great question!  I'm using this to get everything in place to see what lengths I'll ultimately need once everything is in it's final position after measurements.  Then I'll get the awesome DH Labs Q-10 Signature for my speakers...

That's unfortunate, though admittedly I have no idea what makes a speaker cable "awesome." That's just not a word I'd use for bog standard commodity parts.

The one thing I would do with an M2 or any biamped speaker is use wire that looks different for HF and LF. Generally, I use "in wall" type cable containing red/black/green/white wires.

[jtwrace]

That's unfortunate, though admittedly I have no idea what makes a speaker cable "awesome." That's just not a word I'd use for bog standard commodity parts.

The one thing I would do with an M2 or any biamped speaker is use wire that looks different for HF and LF. Generally, I use "in wall" type cable containing red/black/green/white wires.

My "awesome" is that it's constructed well and just a no nonsense type of cable or company as they started in the pro world. 

[AJinFLA]

As proof I am sure you can find plenty of examples of M2s in dedicated rooms. Studios wouldn't spend the money on room acoustics if they didn't think it was an advantage.

JT and Goskers bought their M2s for studio work? Where was this stated?
By "dedicated" room, are you referring to a so called "treated" one, based on your own audio-visual preferences?

Finally, the Harman preference testing for dispersion is confounded by not taking into account listener acclimation.

Evidence please.
Dr Toole dedicated a chapter to human adaptation in his book, making your assertion highly questionable that Harman would be unaware.
However, if you can present evidence from rigorous controlled testing with statistically large groups that counter Harmans findings, I'd be very interested in reading. thanks.

We get used to hearing direct radiators and hear 1st reflections as "spaciousness" but without acclimation to a narrower dispersion pattern and allowing the brain to get used to the different presentation the preference testing is confounded and near useless.

Evidence for this asserted fact please.

[AJinFLA]

My "awesome" is that it's constructed well and just a no nonsense type of cable or company as they started in the pro world.

The Amazon stuff is of poor physical construction then?
Btw, I couldn't find anything confirming EG was out of speaker biz. Joking perhaps?

[poseidonsvoice]

The Amazon stuff is of poor physical construction then?
Btw, I couldn't find anything confirming EG was out of speaker biz. Joking perhaps?

AJ,

He's out: http://www.gedlee.com/Loudspeakers/Loudspeakers.aspx

Best,
Anand.

[jtwrace]

The Amazon stuff is of poor physical construction then?

I never said that.  The DH just full-fills my audiophile void and looks prettier.  That's all. 

[AJinFLA]

AJ,

He's out: http://www.gedlee.com/Loudspeakers/Loudspeakers.aspx

Best,
Anand.

Thanks Anand. Weird, just looked at site and didn't see that. Oh well, happens to all us old speaker builders eventually. 
I wish him the best.