[Sumokitty]

I bought a pair of Counterpoint SA-4 OTL amps and have dug around more. Now I am worried about heat generation and going through tubes like candy. Do all OTL speakers suffer from the same problems or are the counterpoints a more stable design? And are there any mods that make it more reliable?

[mresseguie]

I don't know the answer, but I'll wager you'll have better results if you post this in the Tube-o-phile circle.

Michael

[richidoo]

All tube amps are a pain in the ass to own and run. But if you want the tube sound, you have to tolerate the good with the bad. You have to just accept that, "it is what it is," and focus on the good.

Forget about efficiency and heat and specs and cost with tubes. If it gets hot, crank up the A/C. Their only redeeming value is the sound. For tube lovers the sound is worth the many inconveniences. To be happy while owning a tube amp you must have an open minded tolerant attitude to expect trouble and be prepared to deal with it by having spare parts on hand, and the ability to do basic repairs yourself, or a local tech. If you are impatient and shallow, a tube amp can be a wonderful long term spiritual lesson.

Worrying about heat, maintenance, reliability are against the tube religion. Tube amps help you worship the art of music, but they try your patience. Just think of it as a beast of burden, a hated appliance that is a necessary evil. Your music requires it so you indulge in tubes for the sake of the music you love. Use and abuse the tube amp because it deserves it, because you know in the long run no matter how badly you think of it it will always hate you more and frustrate you. Be prepared to laugh at it when it breaks, then shove in new tubes and shout "Now get back to work you obsolete piece of junk!"

If you like the sound of it then just pump in the tubes it needs to deliver the pleasure. Like a hotrod needs more gas to deliver the rewards. If you get hung up on tube amp flaws then you are not made for tubes. It is what it is. Everything is bad and obsolete except the sound. Figure out how long the tubes last, evaluate the price per year and decide if it's worth it, but evaluate while listening to them playing music so you have correct perspective. You can never justify owning tube amps on paper without factoring in the intangibles like sound quality and listening pleasure. A hotrod is always a poor choice for transportation and a Honda Accord is always a poor choice for entertainment. Both are valid choices depending on your needs and desires. Tubes are for the desires!

[FullRangeMan]

All OTLs built more heat than a OPT amp w/the same tube, they run hoter and tubes tend to last less hours, you could remove the amp top to a better cooling when in use.
If your tubes are cheap tube life not a prob.
I strongly suggest dont modify this amp.

[sebrof]

All tube amps are a pain in the ass to own and run. But if you want the tube sound, you have to tolerate the good with the bad. You have to just accept that, "it is what it is," and focus on the good.

Forget about efficiency and heat and specs and cost with tubes. If it gets hot, crank up the A/C. Their only redeeming value is the sound. For tube lovers the sound is worth the many inconveniences. To be happy while owning a tube amp you must have an open minded tolerant attitude to expect trouble and be prepared to deal with it by having spare parts on hand, and the ability to do basic repairs yourself, or a local tech. If you are impatient and shallow, a tube amp can be a wonderful long term spiritual lesson.

Worrying about heat, maintenance, reliability are against the tube religion. Tube amps help you worship the art of music, but they try your patience. Just think of it as a beast of burden, a hated appliance that is a necessary evil. Your music requires it so you indulge in tubes for the sake of the music you love. Use and abuse the tube amp because it deserves it, because you know in the long run no matter how badly you think of it it will always hate you more and frustrate you. Be prepared to laugh at it when it breaks, then shove in new tubes and shout "Now get back to work you obsolete piece of junk!"

If you like the sound of it then just pump in the tubes it needs to deliver the pleasure. Like a hotrod needs more gas to deliver the rewards. If you get hung up on tube amp flaws then you are not made for tubes. It is what it is. Everything is bad and obsolete except the sound. Figure out how long the tubes last, evaluate the price per year and decide if it's worth it, but evaluate while listening to them playing music so you have correct perspective. You can never justify owning tube amps on paper without factoring in the intangibles like sound quality and listening pleasure. A hotrod is always a poor choice for transportation and a Honda Accord is always a poor choice for entertainment. Both are valid choices depending on your needs and desires. Tubes are for the desires!

I'm really not sure if I agree with any of that.
I turn my tube amps on, I listen, I turn them off.
SS amps are basically zero maintenance, and tube amps are one step more complicated than zero.   

[Shakeydeal]

All tube amps are a pain in the ass to own and run. But if you want the tube sound, you have to tolerate the good with the bad. You have to just accept that, "it is what it is," and focus on the good.

Forget about efficiency and heat and specs and cost with tubes. If it gets hot, crank up the A/C. Their only redeeming value is the sound. For tube lovers the sound is worth the many inconveniences. To be happy while owning a tube amp you must have an open minded tolerant attitude to expect trouble and be prepared to deal with it by having spare parts on hand, and the ability to do basic repairs yourself, or a local tech. If you are impatient and shallow, a tube amp can be a wonderful long term spiritual lesson.

Worrying about heat, maintenance, reliability are against the tube religion. Tube amps help you worship the art of music, but they try your patience. Just think of it as a beast of burden, a hated appliance that is a necessary evil. Your music requires it so you indulge in tubes for the sake of the music you love. Use and abuse the tube amp because it deserves it, because you know in the long run no matter how badly you think of it it will always hate you more and frustrate you. Be prepared to laugh at it when it breaks, then shove in new tubes and shout "Now get back to work you obsolete piece of junk!"

If you like the sound of it then just pump in the tubes it needs to deliver the pleasure. Like a hotrod needs more gas to deliver the rewards. If you get hung up on tube amp flaws then you are not made for tubes. It is what it is. Everything is bad and obsolete except the sound. Figure out how long the tubes last, evaluate the price per year and decide if it's worth it, but evaluate while listening to them playing music so you have correct perspective. You can never justify owning tube amps on paper without factoring in the intangibles like sound quality and listening pleasure. A hotrod is always a poor choice for transportation and a Honda Accord is always a poor choice for entertainment. Both are valid choices depending on your needs and desires. Tubes are for the desires!

This reads more like satire than actual facts. Yes, a tube may go from time to time. More often than not, I put in a set of output tubes and don't even think about them for a couple of years. Small pin tubes, much longer than that. If you can't (or won't) afford the expense of a few hundred dollars every 2-3 years, then it might be time for a new hobby.

As for your analogy. SS amps would be more like the Honda Accord. Practical and reliable, but boring as hell. Just utilitarian. Tubes are that smoking cheerleader you always wanted to date in high school, only not nearly as high maintenance.

Here is your take away:

Tubes rule, SS drools!

Shakey

[sfox7076]

It is a well known design.  If the electrolytics are shot, it will not run right (like all tube amps).  It does run the tubes hard, but that's what OTL does.  If you don't want that, get transformer coupled...  Not sure what else to say.

[OzarkTom]

Roger Modjeski designed the Conterpoints, shoot an email to him through Ram Labs.
Roger still makes OTL's on speciual order.

[JLM]

As I barely understand, OTL's are notoriously unstable.  If you want OTL, try looking into Transcendent Sound.

Some tubes last longer than others, so shop around.

[twitch54]

All tube amps are a pain in the ass to own and run.

Wrong ........... you obviously have not experienced modern tube amplification. I'm currently running a pair of Rogue M-180 mono blocks , piece of cake and no more heat than my Plinius SA-102 biased fully into Class A

[decal]

All tube amps are a pain in the ass to own and run. But if you want the tube sound, you have to tolerate the good with the bad. You have to just accept that, "it is what it is," and focus on the good.

Forget about efficiency and heat and specs and cost with tubes. If it gets hot, crank up the A/C. Their only redeeming value is the sound. For tube lovers the sound is worth the many inconveniences. To be happy while owning a tube amp you must have an open minded tolerant attitude to expect trouble and be prepared to deal with it by having spare parts on hand, and the ability to do basic repairs yourself, or a local tech. If you are impatient and shallow, a tube amp can be a wonderful long term spiritual lesson.

Worrying about heat, maintenance, reliability are against the tube religion. Tube amps help you worship the art of music, but they try your patience. Just think of it as a beast of burden, a hated appliance that is a necessary evil. Your music requires it so you indulge in tubes for the sake of the music you love. Use and abuse the tube amp because it deserves it, because you know in the long run no matter how badly you think of it it will always hate you more and frustrate you. Be prepared to laugh at it when it breaks, then shove in new tubes and shout "Now get back to work you obsolete piece of junk!"

If you like the sound of it then just pump in the tubes it needs to deliver the pleasure. Like a hotrod needs more gas to deliver the rewards. If you get hung up on tube amp flaws then you are not made for tubes. It is what it is. Everything is bad and obsolete except the sound. Figure out how long the tubes last, evaluate the price per year and decide if it's worth it, but evaluate while listening to them playing music so you have correct perspective. You can never justify owning tube amps on paper without factoring in the intangibles like sound quality and listening pleasure. A hotrod is always a poor choice for transportation and a Honda Accord is always a poor choice for entertainment. Both are valid choices depending on your needs and desires. Tubes are for the desires!

You must not have had much experience with tubed equipment in the last twenty years or so !!!!!

[Early B.]

Wrong ........... you obviously have not experienced modern tube amplification. I'm currently running a pair of Rogue M-180 mono blocks , piece of cake and no more heat than my Plinius SA-102 biased fully into Class A

Several years ago, I replaced my Rogue M-120 monoblocks for a SS amp for the reasons richidoo mentioned. OK, his statements were a bit over the top, but nonetheless true, in general. Tubes degenerate over time, so even if the stated tube life is 50,000 hours, the sound quality may slowly begin to diminish starting at 500 hours, and you won't notice it until you pop in a fresh new pair of the exact same tubes.

[Elizabeth]

After the fact worrying?
Ask these questions before you buy it.
However, now that you OWN it..
You really have no idea how often it will 'eat tubes'.
It may blow tubes in great clouds of smoke sparks and flames every week. Or the tubes may last you trouble free for years.

You have no idea. And NEITHER DOES ANYONE HERE. (though some may have a better understanding of the values and issues)

My only suggestion is NEVER leave the amplifier on without YOU being present.
A fire burning down you home is no fun. I even suggest placing the amp on a sandbox, or non combustable platform. clear of any other stuff. So if (rare) but if it does start on fire. you have time to think out what to do. Instead of just running away from the spreading flames (because you had it tucked under the overhanging drapes!).

Anyway, enjoy it. Use it and have a spare set of tubes around just in case.
If it turns out it does use too many tubes, and gets too hot in Summer.. Think of it as a fun lesson in audio life.

(I leave my non tube stuff on 24/7. the heat helps in Winter, and costs for Air in Summer. No problem)

[Freo-1]

Several years ago, I replaced my Rogue M-120 monoblocks for a SS amp for the reasons richidoo mentioned. OK, his statements were a bit over the top, but nonetheless true, in general. Tubes degenerate over time, so even if the stated tube life is 50,000 hours, the sound quality may slowly begin to diminish starting at 500 hours, and you won't notice it until you pop in a fresh new pair of the exact same tubes.

I think you are overstating the issue.  Tubes do not necessarily degrade as soon as 500 hours.  My experience is that some tubes can take hundreds of hours to "break in" to their full potential. For example,  I've found that 1625 power tubes can go for several thousand hours with no noticeable degrade.  I tried a couple of times as a experiment to put some hours on new 1625 tubes, comparing them to the tubes currently in use, and in every case, they actually needed a couple hundred hours to fully break in.   


My tube gear has a fair amount of TV tubes, and those were made to last a long time.   Tube gear can and does provide sonic characteristics that SS gear just cannot match.  I find NOS tubes in general last longer and sound better.


Getting back to the OP, as long as the electrolytic caps are changed out once they get over 10 years of age/use, should be reasonably reliable.

[FullRangeMan]

My only suggestion is NEVER leave the amplifier on without YOU being present.

Correct. A gas fire extinguisher would not hurt too.
I would add after power off the equips remove the power cord from the mains wall, it save me various times in stormy wheather.

[Rusty Jefferson]

I bought a pair of Counterpoint SA-4 OTL amps and have dug around more. Now I am worried about heat generation and going through tubes like candy. Do all OTL speakers suffer from the same problems or are the counterpoints a more stable design? And are there any mods that make it more reliable?

Okay, your post and questions seem reasonable, but some of the responses seem quite a bit off topic.  Traditional OTL amplifiers can be problematic, and chew up tubes because of their architecture.  However, ZOTL OTL amps from David Berning Co. are different.  They are super reliable, easy on tube life (sometimes 100,000 hrs.+), and safe.  It's a completely different way of doing OTL, and they sound terrific. You can learn more about them here:
http://www.davidberning.com/
and here:
http://www.lineartubeaudio.com/the-technology

[FullRangeMan]

Okay, your post and questions seem reasonable, but some of the responses seem quite a bit off topic.  Traditional OTL amplifiers can be problematic, and chew up tubes because of their architecture.  However, ZOTL OTL amps from David Berning Co. are different.  They are super reliable, easy on tube life (sometimes 100,000 hrs.+), and safe.  It's a completely different way of doing OTL, and they sound terrific. You can learn more about them here:
http://www.davidberning.com/
and here:
http://www.lineartubeaudio.com/the-technology

There ZOTLs are great sound amps, seems they arent sell direct from the Berning site, but by a dealer net, what means hi prices;

[twitch54]

Several years ago, I replaced my Rogue M-120 monoblocks for a SS amp for the reasons richidoo mentioned. OK, his statements were a bit over the top, but nonetheless true, in general. Tubes degenerate over time, so even if the stated tube life is 50,000 hours, the sound quality may slowly begin to diminish starting at 500 hours, and you won't notice it until you pop in a fresh new pair of the exact same tubes.

No chit Sherlock, but if you feel you can discern 500 hrs tube use in your Rogues I say ........... BS !! If you read my post you know that I also have a respectable SS amp (Plinius SA-102) so I know full well of the differences, as for the Rogues they are a piece of cake to maintain, if you had problems then either your amps were at fault or you were ......... I suspect the latter  ......

[Rusty Jefferson]

There ZOTLs are great sound amps, seems they arent sell direct from the Berning site, but by a dealer net, what means hi prices;

Not true.  David does sell several models not listed on his website direct, and Linear Tube Audio (the 2nd link I provided) sells David's licensed designs that are manufactured in suburban Maryland.

[JerryM]

Gosh, what's with the fucking hostility???

The OP asked for basic information. 

Sumokitty -  Are you burning through tubes, with a bunch of heat, or are you just worried about that happening?

Please forgive my pea-sized brain, but I find your query somewhat ambiguous.