Spatial M3 Triode Master

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glynnw

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Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
« Reply #100 on: 31 Jul 2017, 06:30 pm »
I also went from M3 Turbo S to Triode Master.  I have noticed that I enjoy the music when sitting well outside the sweetspot (my desk in the back right corner of room).  There is no soundstageing, but the tone, etc remain nice almost anywhere in the room.

who?me?

Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
« Reply #101 on: 5 Aug 2017, 03:46 am »
The larger sweet spot is only with the M3 Triode Master, not with the M3 Turbo S or below.  I upgraded my M3 Turbo S to the Triode Master and the main differences are the larger soundstage and improved detail in the highs.  I had my speakers for a year before I upgraded, so the woofers were broken in.  The new high end horn did have a break in period.

If you can, have the electronics be as good as you can afford.  I replaced my Class D Audio SDS-470 with Schiit Vidar monos and the soundstage and overall sound improved again and it was significant.  These speakers will show you what your upstream components are capable of.

I've tried my EL-34 tubed PrimaLuna HT Int Amp, an Eastern Electric Booster Buffer Amp with a pair of 40 watt A-B push-pull KT88 DIY monos, and now a Naim Nait 5i Int Amp solid state/capacitors. So far, and this is what I would kind of expect, is that overall, the PrimaLuna sounds best, in Pentode mode. the Booster Buffer Amp and DIY monos had the best mids and high as one might expect.

But I'm actually most surprised how well the Naim runs the TMs. It is just a 50 watt amp on paper, but as is typical with Naim gear, its more equivalent to 100 watts compared to other companies. I bought the Naim used for around $850, and the SQ is very clean convincing, balanced, lively with not too much bass, and that is a good thing. the bass I heard was tight, controlled. But the DIY monos could not reproduce the quality or delineation of bass tiers as the Naim did. {That said, the CDP was a SimAudio, known for stronger and tighter than average bass presentations)
« Last Edit: 5 Aug 2017, 04:56 pm by who?me? »

who?me?

Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
« Reply #102 on: 9 Aug 2017, 04:18 pm »
The larger sweet spot is only with the M3 Triode Master, not with the M3 Turbo S or below.  I upgraded my M3 Turbo S to the Triode Master and the main differences are the larger soundstage and improved detail in the highs.  I had my speakers for a year before I upgraded, so the woofers were broken in.  The new high end horn did have a break in period.

If you can, have the electronics be as good as you can afford.  I replaced my Class D Audio SDS-470 with Schiit Vidar monos and the soundstage and overall sound improved again and it was significant.  These speakers will show you what your upstream components are capable of.

I saw those Vidar on the Schitt website, they look amazing at for the price. Are they too much power for the Triodes? Have you tried them with other speakers?

jseymour

Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
« Reply #103 on: 9 Aug 2017, 04:31 pm »
I have not tried them with other speakers.  It is not too much power.  I am running 2 monos and the system sounds great.  I can get my Schiit Freya volume knob close to 12 o'clock at low 80 db range.  When I tried just a single Vidar the knob was at 2 o'clock at the same volume.  A single Vidar gets hot.  Hot enough you cannot leave your hand on it.  Running mono, the amps get warm, but you can leave your hand on it.

who?me?

Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
« Reply #104 on: 10 Aug 2017, 04:24 pm »
I have not tried them with other speakers.  It is not too much power.  I am running 2 monos and the system sounds great.  I can get my Schiit Freya volume knob close to 12 o'clock at low 80 db range.  When I tried just a single Vidar the knob was at 2 o'clock at the same volume.  A single Vidar gets hot.  Hot enough you cannot leave your hand on it.  Running mono, the amps get warm, but you can leave your hand on it.

That was my next question ... about the Freya ... and the active and passive passive options with the tubes and/or jfet/mfets. So 80db - is that with active? passive? can you say what difference you notice running these options via the Spatials?
best, Gary

jseymour

Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
« Reply #105 on: 11 Aug 2017, 01:55 am »
Basically you get more meat on the bones (tonal density) as you go from passive to SS to Tube.  Passive I have no use for.  Too lean.  Critical listening would lead one to say SS mode is the cleaner mode vs. Tube, but there is an aliveness to Tube mode that I find addictive.  So that's the mode I stay in.  I have played both SS vs. Tube mode for several people and they all have selected tube mode as their choice.  I jokingly call it the pixie dust mode. 

I should note I have a good collection of NOS 6C8G, 6F8G, 6SN7 and 7N7s from all the known manufacturers.  This moment I have Raytheon 6SN7GTAs (1960) in gain with Ken-Rad 6C8Gs (1943) in buffer.  Favorite tubes are Sylvania, Raytheon and Ken-Rad (pre GE).  Second tier are Tung-Sol, RCA and National Union.  Don't mean to get onto a tube tangent, but tube rolling has been a fun aspect of owning the Freya.

bbybaudio

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Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
« Reply #106 on: 15 Aug 2017, 08:20 pm »
To WHO?ME?

Have the newest version (one with Mundorf caps) of the Primaluna Dialogue HP Premium integrated and seriously looking at Triode Masters. Have some concerns as no real reviews out there on speakers yet. All of the posts here are great. Have you solved your "sibilance" issue and can you now run amp in ultralinear as well as triode? Thank you

lolligagger

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Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
« Reply #107 on: 18 Aug 2017, 12:49 am »
slefley,

Once they are broken in, they sound very good at lower volumes.

However in your case there's just one problem... in order to break them in you need to play them very LOUD for a very LONG time. Since you live in a condo where the volume must be kept down, I can't see that happening.

OTOH, if you have family/friends who own a house and they are planning a vacation, that could give you the opportunity you need to turn up real loud for a few hundred hours. Of course there's one other possibility ...find a used pair that are already broken in.

IMO, the hours played below 100db don't count if you are trying to break them in.

Unfortunately this is a misconception.

Any of Clayton's Hologram speakers, including the M3 Triode Master, will break in at lower volume levels. However total break in at lower levels will take longer to achieve. How long would depend on the volume level. The lower the volume the longer the time it will take.

I just called Clayton and he confirmed this. He told me that he suggests to people to play them at normal levels and that in approximately 100 hours they will begin to open up and continue to do so for several hundred hours after that.
He feels that 100db is extremely loud but if one can and wants to do it that way, then fine. It will speed up break-in and not harm the speakers in any way.

He offers two suggestions for people who would like to break them in at loud volume levels but for some reason, as in the case of  Slefley, are unable to do so.

1. Clayton, if asked, will break them in prior to sending them out.

2. Connect the speakers out of phase to cancel out the sound of bass to some extent and lay them face down flat on the floor... preferably on a rug so as not to scratch them. In this way the volume level can be turned way up and the sound will not be disturbing to anyone.

If you have any further questions about this, Clayton invites you to call him to discuss it.

who?me?

Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
« Reply #108 on: 21 Aug 2017, 12:48 am »
To WHO?ME?

Have the newest version (one with Mundorf caps) of the Primaluna Dialogue HP Premium integrated and seriously looking at Triode Masters. Have some concerns as no real reviews out there on speakers yet. All of the posts here are great. Have you solved your "sibilance" issue and can you now run amp in ultralinear as well as triode? Thank you

Hey, Yes the PrimaLuna Dialogue HP Premium is doing very well with the Spatials.
When I mentioned sibilance I didnt use the best word.

I would just say that after a weekend at CAS listening to multiple systems,
I had some listener fatigue and was more sensitive to frequency ranges.
Then getting the Spatials to my home on Sunday eve, tired but excited about it,
I didnt use the best word.

The PrimaLuna amp maintains full authority over the Spatials and the sound and SQ from top to bottom.
Manhandles the Spatials. Pretty precise tone, attack and decay, the highs sparkle but are realistic,
the lows well-delineated and great punch.

All told, I think this is a very good combo of amp and speakers.
My limitations are due to my own listening room and personal taste about the PrimaLuna.
e.g.. my listening space is about 12x20, so I can't turn it up to rock and roll levels without
too much sonic pressure building up in the room.

And my own personal opinion of the PrimaLuna is that the stock tubes are good,
but I think the front end, the preamp end, lacks some substance and soundstage compare to my old preamp.
The PrimaLuna behaved this way not just with the Spatials, but with every speaker I have played them with, so it is NOT b/c of the Spatials.

So I'm going to replace the 6 12AU7s sometime soon.
Are you also using the stock tubes on the Prima?

bbybaudio

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Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
« Reply #109 on: 22 Aug 2017, 05:44 pm »
Just in to week two with the PL. Replaced Cary SLP 98 F1 Direct coupled going to Manley Snappers. I was surprised to find the PL seems to be better than my earlier gear in almost all aspects. Could be the placebo effect, but even my wife seems to notice the difference.

Because of the lack of any reviews on the Spatials, I am torn in regards to purchase. Room is 22 x 15.5 x 9. Other speaker I am looking at is Focal 1028 BE and 1038 BE. Upscale audio demos the Focals using the PL Integrated.

jseymour

Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
« Reply #110 on: 22 Aug 2017, 10:37 pm »
I understand your concern with the lack of reviews.   But Spatial does have the 60 day trial period allows you to experience the M3 in your own home without risk.  I am loving my Spatials in a room that is 33' X 17' 3" X 7' 6".  You will also save some money.

who?me?

Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
« Reply #111 on: 23 Aug 2017, 04:57 pm »
Just in to week two with the PL. Replaced Cary SLP 98 F1 Direct coupled going to Manley Snappers. I was surprised to find the PL seems to be better than my earlier gear in almost all aspects. Could be the placebo effect, but even my wife seems to notice the difference.

Because of the lack of any reviews on the Spatials, I am torn in regards to purchase. Room is 22 x 15.5 x 9. Other speaker I am looking at is Focal 1028 BE and 1038 BE. Upscale audio demos the Focals using the PL Integrated.

Well, I think your room size is big enough for the Spatials. Mine is 12x20x10 high,
and I would say that it is just big enough for these speakers, I speculate that it has to do
with the 2 big 15' cones moving air and sonic energy. IMO, these speaks work better for bigger rooms.

I feel like I can still turn up the volume on the PL to get enough dynamics, substance, and nuance to where I like it,
but turning up the volume much more after that point will push the overall energy in the room to the point of annoyance.
This is not bad per se, but something I had to learn about these particular speakers. But once I figured out that limit,
its all good, I dont even want to turn up the Volume any higher.

Last, like Zu Audio, I like the factory-direct manufacturers that have proven themselves and can sell gear
without a fleet of stores selling their stuff. this keeps the cost down, so $4000 with a generous return policy (60 days)
and a generous warranty (20 years) makes the risk relatively low.

bbybaudio

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Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
« Reply #112 on: 23 Aug 2017, 07:56 pm »
Thank you. Have talked with several individuals about placement of Spatials, with consensus being 48-60" from rear wall for best 3D imaging. In my room they will be placed on long (22 ft) wall. The 48-60" puts them 10 ft from back wall, and about 8.5 ft from listening position. The 60 day trial is attractive. I also saw that Clayton can break them in prior to shipping. Kevin Deal at Upscale Audio thought the Spatials sounded good, but did bring up the space away from the rear wall.

JackD

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Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
« Reply #113 on: 23 Aug 2017, 08:37 pm »
The distance from the front baffle edge to the back wall is personal preference and room dependent.  48-60" is not a figure set in stone.  In my room I found that to be excessive and detrimental to the sound.  Start at 30" like Clayton recommends and find the right distance for yourself.  In my room it was considerably less than the figures being suggested. 

lolligagger

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Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
« Reply #114 on: 26 Aug 2017, 11:19 pm »
Because of the lack of any reviews on the Spatials, I am torn in regards to purchase. Room is 22 x 15.5 x 9. Other speaker I am looking at is Focal 1028 BE and 1038 BE. Upscale audio demos the Focals using the PL Integrated.

My room is 12W x 17L X 10H. Clayton told me that the M3s would work even in my small room but he felt the M4s might even be more appropriate.
So that is what I have... the M4 Turbo S, soon to become the M4 Triode Master. Your room is considerably bigger than mine so the M3s should work very well in it. However it might be best to talk to Clayton about it prior to purchasing.

On the phone he is always very helpful.

The TM upgrade program for the M4 is now underway. If the upgrade is now available, I would assume that he is also producing new M4 Triode Masters 

I agree with JackD. In my room my M4 TS are no where near that far from the back wall and they sound great.  But that said, the M4 Triode Master may require more space from the wall.

Once again, best to talk to Clayton






JackD

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Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
« Reply #115 on: 27 Aug 2017, 02:37 am »
I'll know whether any distance change is required when my M3 TM's get back from Clayton the middle of next week. 

SoundSound

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Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
« Reply #116 on: 28 Aug 2017, 03:32 pm »
Hi David,

The key to achieving good loudspeaker matching with tube amplifiers is that the speaker exhibit both high impedance as well a reasonably smooth impedance curve. The phase performance will indicate whether the amp will sound good into a given load. You can see in the graph of the M3 Triode Master that the nominal impedance is around 16Ω with a very flat phase plot. Abrupt changes in the phase curve indicate reactance. An upward tend reveals capacitive reactance, where a downward slope reveals inductive reactance. These variations in the load can change the frequency response of the amplifier and are responsible for the poor sound often encountered when connecting to normal speakers. The M3 TM's high sensitivity of 92dB is of course, a great benefit as well. The efficiency due to the 16Ω load equates to 95dB.





Clayton Shaw
Spatial Audio Lab
www.spatialaudio.us

Dear Audiophiles! :)

I am not a Guru in the field of Electroacoustics, so please forgive my silly questions… :oops:

How can we determine with any degree of accuracy from the above plot the averaged over the frequency range from 5Hz to 20kHz M3TM impedance is around 16Ω mark?
I see a local min at around 14Ω (5Hz and 80Hz) with everything else much higher (about 90Ω at 30Hz, much higher at around 1500Hz)… :scratch:

The swings in phase are somewhere from -45 deg to +45 deg, I guess? :scratch:

Do you believe the above constitutes an “easy” (am not sure what the appropriate technical term for this is) load for an amplifier? Not sure if there any differences in case of tube or solid state designs…
In any case, in my limited understanding, the speaker impedance should match (be equal to?) the internal impedance (output impedance?) of the amplifier… :scratch:

Do I understand correctly M3TM's are time-coherent above the crossover point? :scratch:

Some fellow audiophiles report good results employing Vinnie Rossi LIO MOSFET amp (25 wpc @ 8-ohms) with M3TM’s. I wonder what the internal impedance (output impedance?) of this amplifier is… :scratch:

Could somebody please post electrical impedance vs. frequency plot for the M3TS? Would be interesting to compare them... :scratch:

As always, all your responses are greatly appreciated. Please chime in! :)

Sorry about my long and eclectic post… :oops:

who?me?

Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
« Reply #117 on: 28 Aug 2017, 09:15 pm »
soundSound
Thx for sharing, All good questions,  i'm interested in the answers as well.

bbybaudio

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Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
« Reply #118 on: 31 Aug 2017, 08:34 pm »
Thank you all for response on triode masters and room size. Though not relevant to this string, put Brimar 12AU7s in preamp slots of PL Dialogue Integrated. Wow! Great improvement in mids, overall sound.

who?me?

Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
« Reply #119 on: 1 Sep 2017, 06:10 pm »
Thank you all for response on triode masters and room size. Though not relevant to this string, put Brimar 12AU7s in preamp slots of PL Dialogue Integrated. Wow! Great improvement in mids, overall sound.

BBY-
I think we are on the same wavelength, except you haven't sprung for the Triode Masters ... yet.
I have the Triodes and the HP Integrated, just ordered 4 Mullard M8136s from Upscale to replace 4 of the 6 Preamp 12AU7s. My choice was b/w the Mullards and the Brimars you just bought.

We both probably take to Jarrod at Upscale. He recommended the Mullards or the Brimar to me when I told him the PL stock 12AU7s were not rich and substantive enough. of course, the price on the Mullards are ridiculous($115 each), but I figured I'll only live once, and can try the Brimar's later if needed. Plus, I need a little roll off on the top end for my ears, sensitive to top end harshness.
best, Gary