[denverdoc]

Csero,

Curious about the JVC technology you referred to--in the demo at RMAF, pretty obvious and straight forward, multiple mikes, some nearfield some farfield--cant imagine how you could recreate the delay and reverb characteristics of a big venue like st johns otherwise.

And to the last post, I love FM myself; Denver's public jazz station KUVO had gone HD, wish I had a tuner to decode it, otherwise love my Luxman tuner--when did those boys go belly up anyway--made some pretty good sounding gear for the $$, and 15 years later the tuner is still going strong w/o ever so much as a hiccup.

 And XM is so much fun in my car, guess I'm gonna have to break down and buy a script for the home. Have a great blues station, and many others. Reminds me of fm in the 70's before it became all so commercial!

Viva la enjoyment of music!!
John

[Ernest]

Hello good men.  Well, I took my HT setup as far as I could, and it isn't far enough.  I did some deep thinking about myself and the place of music and audio in my life.  Someone here wrote something that really struck me and made me realize that as an audiophile I changed the music I listen to.  Well, the music I listen to on my high-end system.  The music I most love, alternative/techno, some pop, harder rock, some hip-hop, all generally sound bad on the high-end systems I have owned.  So I tend to only listen to Jazz on them.  I've come to like Jazz a lot, but when I really want to get into music, I generally want alternative rock.  

So why the hell am I an audiophile?  Most of the time I only get into music in the car or at work with headphones plugged into the Benchmark DAC and using my laptop as a source.  I think what I got hooked on was the equipment and the amazing sound quality.  I liked the sound QUALITY, not so much the music that was playing.  Bah!  It's time for me to get back to the music.  I don't know what that means as far as systems go, but I expect that I'll save a LOT of money!  

Hmm, well, this makes me wonder.  What would a system look like that makes rock sound its best?  Have any of you tried to do this?

As always, I really appreciate the input from all of you.  You guys rock!

Ernest

[nathanm]

Ernest, I definitely know where you're coming from! Although I think it is technically impossible for a system to be genre-specific.   I think the differences have more to do with the recording and listener's expectations.  Considering one's self an audiophile is a mental switch that occurs.  Once you decide to focus your attention on sound quality and less so on music then you may tend to drift towards bland music which sounds great.  I know I'm very guilty of this myself, making some really stupid software choices recently.  But it's really got little to do with the gear and everything to do with my own attitude.

Not to be insulting, but I would theorize that your system probably doesn't do justice to the jazz tracks either, but you just don't realize because it's new and different music, with a different production value than you are used to, so your frame of reference isn't as clear.  Enough things sound cool about the jazz as to overshadow the deficencies.  Maybe the vocals and brushed snare are so intimate that you are able to focus on that and not realize that hey, there's nothing going on in the bass.  Perhaps the ambience and imaging are so intoxicating that once it goes away by listening to those other genres you are disappointed.  Again, this is just an example from my own experience.  I was bowled over by how big and three dimensional another guy's system sounded on jazz tracks, but the music I liked was weak and tiny sounding with no bass.  I KNEW what was on my tracks from previous experience, but since I had never heard the jazz music before I had no idea how it could've sounded any other way and so it seemed auidibly superior.

So if you want a "rock system" then the first thing that will have to change would be in your own mind.  Easier said than done I know!  A lot of this audio shit is purely a mental thing, in my opinion.

[Rocket]

Hi Ernest,

I know exactly where you are coming from as i am basically a rock & roll fan but have come to like jazz mainly because it is recorded quite well.

I have recently bought a good quality turntable and i now search second hand record stores and buy vinyl rock albums on a regular basis.

Regards

Rod

[denverdoc]

Whatever your musical tastes run to, much of what is released sounds like crap--so you climb the high rez ladder and derive ever increasing enjoyment from an ever diminishing number of records?

No! Sure sign of a junkie in the making.

For me what helped immensely was buying speakers that roll off a bit in the treble extremes and having a subwoof with level control. Perfect fix? Hardly, but compared to vinyl ( which pretty much copies the above formula in many respects), much less maintenance. Next step and a pricey one is to buy a DEQX which offers 100 preset EQ curves.

Otherwise I'm afraid you'll "burn out"--abandoning audio cuz those recordings that sound great get old, and don't fire up the limbic brain after habituation, and the stuff thats really floats your boat is "unlistenable"

Steps: when you find an album that you love body, mind and soul, tell your friends to buy it and make apoint of a letter writing campaign. Naive? Maybe but until producers are aware that there are those who care about producyion values, SOS : same old s--t
J

[Watson]

Someone here wrote something that really struck me and made me realize that as an audiophile I changed the music I listen to. Well, the music I listen to on my high-end system. The music I most love, alternative/techno, some pop, harder rock, some hip-hop, all generally sound bad on the high-end systems I have owned. So I tend to only listen to Jazz on them.
...
Hmm, well, this makes me wonder. What would a system look like that makes rock sound its best? Have any of you tried to do this?

I'm pleased you found my earlier comment interesting!  I understand where you're coming from here.

If you're looking for a good, rewarding (i.e. obsession free) rock system, the thing to understand is that most rock is mixed to sound good in the mastering room, and the speakers in that room are usually not typical modern audiophile speakers.  Many studios use monitors with big woofers (8 inches or larger) and soft dome or plastic dome tweeters.  These tend to be more bassy, usually with a midbass hump, and more laid-back in the highs than typical modern audiophile speakers which, perhaps mistakenly, usually aim for a ruler flat frequency response.  So the closer you get to the "ideal" ruler flat home speaker, the farther away you're getting from the speakers the music was mixed to, and the music tends to sound worse.  Again, negative reinforcement.

Another wrinkle is that studio mixes tend to be equalized with levels appropriate for fairly loud listening.  I'm not talking about compression here.  The human ear has a nonlinear frequency response with respect to volume, and a mix intended to be listened to loudly will tend to sound bad if you live in an apartment and can't listen at high levels.

One of the reasons headphones tend to be enjoyable with more music is because most people listen slightly louder with headphones than with speakers in an average home.  Also, virtually all quality headphones have a midbass hump, not unlike that of the typical rock studio monitor.  Finally, by their very nature headphones aren't governed by the "ruler flat" design goal.  Manufacturers aim for radically different high frequency curves depending on engineering arguments and taste, but the goal is to sound right with a variety of recorded music at specific listening levels (usually 80-90dB).

Anyway, all that's the theory.  In my mind, a good, pleasing rock system has big woofers to move a lot of air or a well-powered sub.  The tweeters should be forgiving, generally soft-dome not metal-dome types.  There were plenty of home speakers like this manufactured in the early 90s, e.g. the PSB Century 500i, but they have fallen out of style.  Subwoofers should be medium-Q designs, not "ultra tight" low-Q designs, giving some punch while not going overboard.  Amplification should be extremely punchy.  None of this "the bass isn't loud or prominent but it's quality, tight bass."  Tight bass doesn't have to come at the expense of power.  If an amp doesn't sound powerful, athletic, and iron-fisted in the bass, it's just not enjoyable for rock.  As much as I love the current crop of digital amps (and I do), this rules out digital amps and single-ended triodes.  If you live in an apartment and can't listen at fairly loud levels on a regular basis, get an amp with a loudness control (bass and treble controls sometimes work depending on the curve but are also frequently poor substitutes) or get an equalizer.

A lot of this advice goes against conventional audiophile wisdom, but what use is the conventional wisdom if the music you want to listen to sounds better on an iPod with a pair of inexpensive Koss headphones than a typical $10,000 home rig?  Have fun and find something that pleases you, not something that tilts your musical tastes towards Diana Krall and puts you on the treadmill to dissatisfaction.

[coffeedj]

Very interesting thread!

I have to agree with the others who said, get back to tubes and just listen.   I almost got seduced by the dark side, but one day I did a blind A/B of Radio Shack cables with $1500 silver patch cords (I'll withhold the mfg. name) and found I couldn't tell which was better.  

Realized I needed to listen to music, not components.  Since then I've unloaded my expensive stuff (mostly) and built my own valve amps which lets me play with yard sale tubes when I get the itch to swap.  In the process I've built a lot of valve amps for friends who appreciate the improvement.

Recently an audio of critic of note died, and when they sold his estate they found he owned 10 records.  Period.  That's not listening to music.  I find the some my favorite vinyl's are ones that have serious recording problems, like the audience coughing continuously because it is winter in 1956 in Bulgaria.  But the music is transcendent, and you forget everything else.

[coffeedj]

Very interesting thread!

I have to agree with the others who said, get back to tubes and just listen.   I almost got seduced by the dark side, but one day I did a blind A/B of Radio Shack cables with $1500 silver patch cords (I'll withhold the mfg. name) and found I couldn't tell which was better.  

Realized I needed to listen to music, not components.  Since then I've unloaded my expensive stuff (mostly) and built my own valve amps which lets me play with yard sale tubes when I get the itch to swap.  In the process I've built a lot of valve amps for friends who appreciate the improvement.

Recently an audio of critic of note died, and when they sold his estate they found he owned 10 records.  Period.  That's not listening to music.  I find the some my favorite vinyl's are ones that have serious recording problems, like the audience coughing continuously because it is winter in 1956 in Bulgaria.  But the music is transcendent, and you forget everything else.

[Inscrutable]

While I can empathize with you Ernest, and others, I would submit that as John Lennon wrote:

You tell me it's the institution (sytem)
Well, you know
You better free you mind instead

Like most of us I listen to all kinds of recordings, all genres, all mediums ... while I can appreciate a better recording, fortunately I still enjoy the music itself no matter what.  

It's one thing to tailor the system (or choose among the compromises we all must make) to favor the kind(s) of music you most enjoy.  It's quite another to do so as a result of most music being unlistenable, in hopes of changing that.  It's ALL listenable, if you have your mind right, and most likely the reverse is true as well.

I hope you can turn off the faucet before/instead of continuing to mop up the floor.

Just my non-judgemental constructive $0.02 FWIW.  Good luck!
Tim

[Watson]

While I understand the "just learn to like it" argument, it strikes me as a rationalization.  This kind of rationalization won't stop the audiophile cycle.

The real problem is that oftentimes, like a previous commenter mentioned, the music a person likes sounds more enjoyable in the car or on an iPod  with inexpensive headphones than it does at home in the megabuck rig.

A person can try to rationalize and learn to accept this, but we're talking about enjoyment not intellectual assessment.  Rationalization generally doesn't make a person any happier.  If you have more fun listening in the car than listening at home, that's the core problem, and it needs to be solved rather than just adjusting your attitude.

[jermmd]

In my mind, a good, pleasing rock system has big woofers to move a lot of air or a well-powered sub. The tweeters should be forgiving, generally soft-dome not metal-dome types.

My old Diva 6.1 speakers fit this description to a "T" and they sounded great with classic Rock.   I could listen all day.  I now have a much better system and vastly superior speakers (VMPS RM30's) and guess what?  I don't enjoy hard rock nearly as much.  I find myself listening to simple vocals and acoustic music much more.  I'm not sure if this is because the music I listen to now sounds so much better or if deficiencies in the hard rock recordings make them fatiguing.  I plan on integrating a high quality sub into my system and seeing how that affects what I'm listening to.

Either way, I find this thread fascinating and can relate to a lot of things mentioned so far.

Here's a photo and review of the 6.1's

Joe M.

[Inscrutable]

If you have more fun listening in the car than listening at home, that's the core problem, and it needs to be solved rather than just adjusting your attitude.

Ahhh ... but isn't it your attitude in the car which enables you to enjoy it more?  I would think you are not analyzing soundstaging and imaging and the like - since it is virtually impossible to create that effectively in the car ... tough to see thru those diffusers and traps     Rather aren't you listening to music for the musics sake?  And perhaps throwing off the audiophile yoke (or having it taken from you) enables you to do that?