So digital receivers...

nickspicks · « **Reply #20 on:** 29 Nov 2004, 05:57 pm »

regular old square plug Toslink is what all of these digital recievers have for an input (plus coax on some).
If for some reason you needed a mini optical, then you could get a converter. there are plenty to choose from. Even radio-shack carries them.

sleepkyng · « **Reply #21 on:** 29 Nov 2004, 07:21 pm »

ok, i think i'm gonna get a digital receiver for sure now.

so models from panasonic, jvc and sony i should be lookin at in the $300-400 range?

cheers

nickspicks · « **Reply #22 on:** 29 Nov 2004, 07:25 pm »

the cheapest good Sony, the STR-DA2000ES retails for around $499. You *might* be able to find it cheaper on ebay or refurbed.

if you listen to two channel music at all, then I wouldn't consider anything less than this. its 120wpc and 6.1ch if you need/want it.

audioengr · « **Reply #23 on:** 29 Nov 2004, 07:37 pm »

I just ordered a Panasonic SA-XR70 from onecall.com

I think they are the only web place that you can order these. I have heard the power supply is wimpier than the XR45, but I will see soon I guess..

If you can get a XR45 used, this is a really nice one, particularly if you are going straight digital.

AphileEarlyAdopter · « **Reply #24 on:** 29 Nov 2004, 07:37 pm »

The Sony's have a smooth, solid sound, the Panasonic is pretty 'raw' out of the box, but after I added a Balanced Power conditioner/Power cord, the Panny XR50 seems to be as smooth as the Sony and much more transparent (BTW, my experience with the sony is a short in-store audition). I suggest the XR70 for under $400 , which could be used for Stereo music in bi-amped mode. If your speakers are bi-wire capable, bi-amp should have a very good positive effect.

dave_c · « **Reply #25 on:** 29 Nov 2004, 08:03 pm »

Does anyone have experience with either machines in HT mode. I'm helping my friend put together an HT for his new home and I was about to recommend the NAD 753, but it sounds like the Sony's may be better. Is this true in HT mode too? He's not the type to get his gear modded so I have to go with stock recommendations only.

nickspicks · « **Reply #26 on:** 29 Nov 2004, 08:10 pm »

Quote from: AphileEarlyAdopter

The Sony's have a smooth, solid sound, the Panasonic is pretty 'raw' out of the box, but after I added a Balanced Power conditioner/Power cord, the Panny XR50 seems to be as smooth as the Sony and much more transparent (BTW, my experience with the sony is a short in-store audition). I suggest the XR70 for under $400 , which could be used for Stereo music in bi-amped mode. If your speakers are bi-wire capable, bi-amp should have a very good positive effect.

and you can bet the Sony was not being fed PCM.
i'm tellin' you guys. these DSD upsampling Sony boxes sound so good, you'd have to spend better than $5k in seperates to match them.

if detail, a HUGE 3d soundstage (so much depth, uncanny) and imaging are your bag, then you should definetely audition one. you just have to be sure the place wires one up so that it is being fed a PCM signal.
the difference between running straigt PCM vs. analog in on these is pretty noticable. Its all about that DSD magic! Defeat the EQ, all DSP functions and just run it plain jane. abosultely amazing.

regarding multi-chan and home theatre...I haven't a clue. I can't get beyond 2 channels!

Zero · « **Reply #27 on:** 29 Nov 2004, 08:32 pm »

It is all in what you are looking for.

The Sony products are smooth, incredibly detailed with a large sound-stage and very pin point presentation. You know, all that audiophile techno babble. I personally found them to be excellent for theater (value through the roof), but very poor for two channel. I like to get my foot tapping, and every Sony chip amp product I have tried is about as sterile sounding as you can get. Hardly any personality to really speak of.

The JVC is almost the opposite. It wont control the speakers like the Sony does, it wont capture every last naunce and nor will it have the widest sound-stage. It does however , have an incredibly engaging mid-range and does that "prat" thing real well.

Both can drive semi-difficult loads (6ohm and even a steady 4 ohm speaker) without much difficulty.

It is all in what your looking for, but I wouldnt say one is better than the other. Its just a different flavor.

nickspicks · « **Reply #28 on:** 29 Nov 2004, 08:42 pm »

have you tried the sony like i said? just a PCM input ?

my bitch about the sony is that it is underpowered. i'm probably going to pick up another amp and run the sony as a DAC/preamp only

sleepkyng · « **Reply #29 on:** 29 Nov 2004, 08:56 pm »

ok...

well i like the teac sound, and enjoy the great midrange so maybe that's the direction i'm headed?

also 400 is the tip top of my budget,

i'd really like it to be more in the 250-300 range unless something at 400 will blow me away

mcgsxr · « **Reply #30 on:** 29 Nov 2004, 09:03 pm »

Well, not to put words in Tomek's mouth, but the Teac with PS Audio passive preamp was virtually indescernible from the Panny 15 or 30 that he bought - so, if you like the Teac, but want the remote, and consolidated chassis, the Panny might be the one for you.

As an added "bonus" it sounds best using the digital input, so you could shelf your DAC also, or sell it to add to the budget...

IF you want to use your DAC, and really only use 1 input that matters for sound quality, the JVC F-10 might be for you - not sure how the ES-1 would handle the 4 ohm Totems - I have not tried it, since I am still happy listening to the CSS drivers, even in their primitive enclosure.

lcrim · « **Reply #31 on:** 29 Nov 2004, 10:12 pm »

I had the Sony STR DA3000Es for about a year, as a matter of fact I posted two reviews on it.
While the Sony was incredibly feature rich and was a high value HT receiver, it never got my toe tapping either. The 3000 includes an IEC connector and I used a bybee on the digital input from a DVD player to control the harshness in the treble. It was rated @ 150 watts per channel but it feels much lighter than that. I got rid of my HT stuff saving only the fronts and sub for a number of reasons. I kind of stumbled into the Teac/Tripath, combined w/ a tube preamp. The Teac's have been modded but even bone stock they have a richness, an ability to reveal the inner detail in music that I find very appealing. While they are rated @ only 30 watts , they exhibit speaker damping that is beyond what the Sony @ a higher power rating could ever approach. The Sony implementation of digital amplifiers involves a shift from Pulse Code Modulation to something they call Pulse Width Modulation, I am not sure if this equates to DSD but there is certainly no conversion to analog and therefore a digital input from a Redbook CD really did sound awesome. That's something that the Teac cannot do.
I have not heard the JVC or the battery powered Clar-i-ty but I am keeping an open mind and trying not to get into a pissing contest over which is best. They are just different.
The value factor is enormous with these things, that they all share.

BTW I put a Panny XR50 w/ a digital input and some more difficult to drive Acoustic Energy speakers @ my girlfriends house. It seems to have more sheer grunt than the others.

Red Dragon Audio · « **Reply #32 on:** 29 Nov 2004, 11:24 pm »

Quote from: mcgsxr

...IF you want to use your DAC, and really only use 1 input that matters for sound quality, the JVC F-10 might be for you - not sure how the ES-1 would handle the 4 ohm Totems - I have not tried it, since I am still happy listening to the CSS drivers, even in their primitive enclosure...

I am working on getting some custom autoformers to solve this impedance mismatch problem many of us are facing with these digital receivers.

It will be a 2x autoformer so your amp would see an 8ohm load instead of the 4ohm load. This is much easier for these digital amps which don't have huge current pushing power supplies. Plus it should prove to sound better according to what Paul Speltz says is an amps "sweet spot" in the operating range. He is estimating it's actually closer to 12ohms which I am testing with my own 6ohm speakers (which dip down to 3ohms..eeee).

Look at my other recent posts under the XR50 and JVC RXF10..."little wonders" post to see more about this idea. I'd link it now but I"m being a bit lazy.

sleepkyng · « **Reply #33 on:** 29 Nov 2004, 11:35 pm »

so maybe i should be looking for a panasonic model?

i think the sonys are out of my leauge and probably not my cup of tea, i want something really fun.

nickspicks · « **Reply #34 on:** 29 Nov 2004, 11:42 pm »

here's a thought...
why dont you go out and do some listening?
let your ears be the judge. to hell w/what all us chuckleheads have to say. after all, they are *your ears*.
for now...

Red Dragon Audio · « **Reply #35 on:** 30 Nov 2004, 12:51 am »

nickspicks is right. Your ears will be the best judge. We're only guides along your audio journey.

sleepkyng · « **Reply #36 on:** 30 Nov 2004, 05:28 am »

GAH!

Done in by the old "we wise men cannot walk your path, only you can" gig!

curse you history and mythology! stupid archetypal truisms...

cheers, i think i'm leaning towards the pannys

which model is the question now

Red Dragon Audio · « **Reply #37 on:** 30 Nov 2004, 09:23 am »

Quote from: sleepkyng

GAH!

Done in by the old "we wise men cannot walk your path, only you can" gig!

curse you history and mythology! stupid archetypal truisms...

cheers, i think i'm leaning towards the pannys

which model is the question now

I wish I was included in that "we wise men..." part but I don't know if I am such a wise man.

If you are leaning towards the panny's, the best person to contact right now is Wayne at Bolder cables. He has had the XR45, XR25, XR50 and soon the XR70 in his shop. I would be willing to bet he could tell which of them is the best of the panny lineup.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #38 on:** 1 Dec 2004, 05:29 am »

Quote from: nickspicks

here's a thought...
why dont you go out and do some listening?
let your ears be the judge. to hell w/what all us chuckleheads have to say. after all, they are *your ears*.
for now...

nick,

Where is your Sony 3000es made?

Curious as of fairly recently Sony's most promising and forward thinking technology was always made in Japan and the more mundane stuff elsewhere.

If it's made in Malaysia or China the info would be inconclusive, but if it's made in Japan it could tell us Sony is betting a whole lot on the future of the S-Master technology.

I had a friend that was a Industrial Designer at Sony for years in NJ that told me the corporate strategy on this. It, of course, could have changed in more recent years, but it'd be interesting to know anyhow.

Thx

nickspicks · « **Reply #39 on:** 1 Dec 2004, 11:37 am »

the x000es reciever line has been around since 2003, and are made in japan afaik. I can't really see anything on the box itself that says otherwise.

I suspect these DSD upsampling Sony's may have Meitner code in them. And that is why they sound so damn good. Its like having a poor-mans EMM labs DAC.