am I nuts or does the last track on my LP's sound worst.....

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thepogue

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than all the others?....it seems that the upper frequencies are more distorted than the tracks before it. My buddies say I'm nuts...but I noticed that years ago with a total different set-up...what do you think?

Peace, Pogue

JoshK

am I nuts or does the last track on my LP's sound worst.....
« Reply #1 on: 24 Nov 2004, 03:50 pm »
I think I read about this some time ago.   I think there is a completely logical explanation for it but can't remember off the top of my head.  But I think that is what linear tracking arms are suppose to address.

PhilNYC

am I nuts or does the last track on my LP's sound worst.....
« Reply #2 on: 24 Nov 2004, 04:03 pm »
I'm not a vinyl guy, but I would guess that since the speed in the groove towards the center of the LP is slower, you have more opportunity for distortion?

Bwanagreg

am I nuts or does the last track on my LP's sound worst.....
« Reply #3 on: 24 Nov 2004, 04:06 pm »
This should be explainable in terms of the geometry of the LP.  A conventional tonearm can only try to get the stylus perpendicular to the groove at one point on the LP, usually towards the middle. The errors get worse towards the middle. That was one of the theoretical advantages of the linear arms. I suspect that the increased curvature of the grooves tawards the middle doesn't help either.

Also, the relative velocity of the groove decreases as you move towards the center, since it is the product of the groove radius (smaller towards the center) times the the rate of rotation (a constant).

I'm going from distant memory here, so if anyone can add something that would be great.

nathanm

am I nuts or does the last track on my LP's sound worst.....
« Reply #4 on: 24 Nov 2004, 04:20 pm »
Wow cool, for once I can deny a claim that what audiophiles hear is imagined! :wink:  Nope Pogue, you're not nuts.  Inside track, high frequency tracking distortion is one of those things that really stretches my romantic relationship with this heavily flawed meduim to its limits.  It's far more annoying than the crackles and surface noise which are the usual vinyl complaints.  

You could probably get the outermost tracks to distort too if you lined up the cart on the inside area instead of the center. :(

Dan Banquer

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Last Track Distortion
« Reply #5 on: 24 Nov 2004, 05:28 pm »
It's been a long time but could this be the result of the anti-skating or lack there of on the turntable?
               d.b.

Inscrutable

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am I nuts or does the last track on my LP's sound worst.....
« Reply #6 on: 24 Nov 2004, 11:55 pm »
Quote
It's been a long time but could this be the result of the anti-skating or lack there of on the turntable?
Bingo! (probably)  ... could still be a cartridge misalignment ... Temporarily, try increasing the tracking force - within the cartridge's tolerance, of course.  If it is an anti-skating problem, this should help.  here's some additional info:
Quote
As we know, a pivoted tonearm is drawn by inertia or pressure toward the center of the record. If the inertia is strong enough the arm would have a tendency to jump grooves and skate toward the center. Anti-skate devices were incorporated into tonearms to counter this physical force and keep the needle in the center of the groove as it travels. They work by applying a small amount of back-pressure on the arm to pull it slightly toward the edge of the record. Rarely are anti-skate devices accurate. The space between grooves on a record, are not universal. The wider the spacing, the faster the arm travels toward the center of the record(more inertia) and the more anti-skate is needed to counter balance this extra pull. While it is acknowledged that these devices are not accurate, anti-skate devices are completely necessary in order for most arms to work “properly”. Knowing that tonearms are full of compromises on perfection, a little error in anti-skate is acceptable and probably seen as a necessary evil.

When a pivoted bearing arm (most arms are of this type, REGA for example) is used with no anti-skate, the needle of the cartridge rides on the inner side of the groove due to inertia’s pull (or push) . Because the arm is held steady in the vertical plane at two pivot points, its azimuth is not affected. The top of the tonearm is still parallel to the platter or record (at least it should be). What is affected is where the needle rides in the groove. If you could see the needle riding in the groove you would notice that the tip of the stylus is not at the lowest possible point in the groove but is rather riding up on the side of the inner groove of the record. Not only will you get a mismatch in volume left to right but you will also get more distortion from the inner groove and decreased response, because the stylus is no longer seated properly in the groove.

When a uni-pivot tonearm is used without anti skate, the physical reaction of the arm is VERY different. Because the arm is not rigidly held in the vertical plane, it’s azimuth is greatly affected by this inertia. (Remember, a pivoted/bearing tonearm’s azimuth cannot be affected unless manually changed). When the needle on a uni-pivot arm rides the inner groove of the record, the simple mechanics of the arm causes it to pivot to one side thus causing the needle to sit at an angle in the groove. Of course you get all kinds of distortion and balance problems when this happens. Most answers to this problem is to use a little fishing line with weight attached and drape it over the arm. This presents a host of problems involving the arms affect to this extra weight which rarely sits in the same place on the arm , the line used to connect the weight is not frictionless and thus has negative affects as the arm travels toward the center, the line needs to move to specific points on the arm as it travels toward center to work correctly, etc…etc…

By using an off axis counter weight, the azimuth of the arm is controlled by what position the weight is in. You can have a gram of weight on the arm and have it pivoted to the left OR to the right depending on what position the counter weight sits. If you position the counter weight so that at no point on the record the arms azimuth changes, then you know that the arm is “correctly” riding in the center of the groove thus needing no “anti-skating” compensation. If it is NOT riding in the center of the groove, then, by the very nature of how a uni-pivot arm works, the azimuth would be incorrect.  One edge of the headshell would be tilted up. If we know that the shape of the needle rarely matches the groove exactly, any constant contact of the needle with EITHER side of the groove will reveal itself as an incorrect azimuth!  Simply setting the azimuth correctly on a unipivot arm (and of course making sure VTA and counterbalance weight are correctly set) controls the “anti-skate”.  When all these are set correctly, the needle rides in the center of the groove at its deepest point possible and no anti-skate mechanism is needed.

Source

beat

am I nuts or does the last track on my LP's sound worst.....
« Reply #7 on: 25 Nov 2004, 12:41 am »
My old school engineer buddy says a good engineer (back in the day) would always put the balads within the inner tracks of the record. The reason is, as was stated before, there are limited optimum ranges on the record where you are getting really good response due to the two curves meeting properly (that of the record and that of the arc a tonearm traces). So obviously there are really only two points (or one if you have your TT set up really bad) where it is perfect dependent on how you have all your TT adjustments set up. So as was stated before also, the linear tracking arm was/is supposed to cure this dilema.

mac

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Re: am I nuts or does the last track on my LP's sound worst.
« Reply #8 on: 25 Nov 2004, 01:41 am »
Quote from: thepogue
than all the others?....it seems that the upper frequencies are more distorted than the tracks before it. My buddies say I'm nuts...but I noticed that years ago with a total different set-up...what do you think?

Peace, Pogue


The inner tracks sound just as good as the outers to me.  You must be nuts.   :lol:  
Cheers, mac.

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thepogue

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yummy....
« Reply #9 on: 25 Nov 2004, 03:11 am »
let me have that TT!!!
lol

Peace, Pogue

audiochef

sound quality
« Reply #10 on: 25 Nov 2004, 06:35 am »
There is more information per area on the outside of the disc than on the inside.
The record spins faster on the outside than on the inside just like a merry go round.
It is one of the major flaws of vinyl playback.
This weakness isn't as noticeable with a  great tracking stylus.

andyr

Re: am I nuts or does the last track on my LP's sound worst.
« Reply #11 on: 28 Nov 2004, 09:57 pm »
Quote from: thepogue
than all the others?....it seems that the upper frequencies are more distorted than the tracks before it. My buddies say I'm nuts...but I noticed that years ago with a total different set-up...what do you think?

Peace, Pogue
No you certainly aren't nuts ... although you would appear to have a great set of ears, Pogue!

I can't say I've ever recognised that I was hearing this phenomenon but I recently sent a CD-R which I had recorded, to a friend of mine (it was the EMI audiophile release of "DSOTM" from a coupla years ago), and she said I was getting inner-track distortion, compared to her vinyl rig.  She USED to have this but solved it - ie. while there is some truth in the other posters' descriptions of intrinsic LP artefacts which create some inner-groove distortion, it CAN be addressed and improved.

Christine said it was a vibration issue - ie. as the stylus goes into the inner tracks, it becomes more affected by minute vibrations coming up through the spindle (from the bearing) and out into the vinyl.

This makes a lot of sense to me - particularly as Casey Ng's ExtremePhono "Non-felt Mat" also comes in a "do-nut" version which has a big hole in the middle, the size of the LP label, so the mat doesn't touch the spindle (but, of course, the record itself does!).  Casey says the do-nut version sounds better than the normal version.

The only sure-fire way of removing this inner-groove distortion is to have a vacuum hold-down t/table ... the vacuum locks the LP down hard on the platter and it can't vibrate (if it's a massive platter).

As I have an LP12, not a SOTA, it seemed to me the next best thing would be record clamp - so I've gone and ordered one of these, from Dave Whitaker in NZ (he makes the gorgeous "Aura" t/table).  By its clamping action, it should go a long way towards coupling the vinyl to the platter, so it vibrates less.

I'll post when I've tried it out.

Regards,

Andy

Ulas

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am I nuts or does the last track on my LP's sound worst.....
« Reply #12 on: 28 Nov 2004, 11:45 pm »
Pogue, sounds like your cart is out of alignment. You’ll need an alignment protractor to do the job. The price range is from free to several hundred dollars. You get what you pay for in terms of precision and ease of use. If you cart is way out of line, one of the free protractors should get you back in the ballpark.

andyr

am I nuts or does the last track on my LP's sound worst.....
« Reply #13 on: 29 Nov 2004, 12:40 am »
Quote from: Ulas
Sounds like your cart is out of alignment. You’ll need an alignment protractor to do the job. The price range is from free to several hundred dollars. You get what you pay for in terms of precision and ease of use. If you cart is way out of line, one of the free protractors should get you back in the ballpark.
Ulas, not sure if your post references mine or back to Pogues' (because U didn't use "quote") but my Ebony LP is set up correctly, using my Wallytractor.

Regards,

Andy

andyr

am I nuts or does the last track on my LP's sound worst.....
« Reply #14 on: 29 Nov 2004, 05:15 am »
Apologies, Ulas, I just re-read your post and saw that your first word was "Pogue"!

Regards,

Andy

woodsyi

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am I nuts or does the last track on my LP's sound worst.....
« Reply #15 on: 30 Nov 2004, 05:42 pm »
How are record grooves produced?  Is a vinyl master stamped or cut?  If the master is cut using a "unipivot" arm, wouldn't that already correct for the aforementioned "problems"?  Or is the systematic error additive?

nathanm

am I nuts or does the last track on my LP's sound worst.....
« Reply #16 on: 30 Nov 2004, 06:44 pm »
The master is cut with a lathe on a laquer disk, then that's plated with silver and nickel which gives you the metal stamp for pounding out all the vinyl copies.  I don't think there is such a thing as a unipivot cutting lathe as far as I know.  Hence, the tangential tracking arm moves like the cutting lathe whereas unipivots etc. move in a gentle arc.  In theory...  Ahh but just throw the eighty bazillion other factors affecting turntable setup and you'll have a neverending source of tweaking\worrying fun! :wink:

Mac: So is that arm a pain in the butt to set up\maintain or what?  Just curious.

andyr

am I nuts or does the last track on my LP's sound worst.....
« Reply #17 on: 30 Nov 2004, 09:46 pm »
Quote from: nathanm
...  I don't think there is such a thing as a unipivot cutting lathe as far as I know.  ...
Hi, Nathan,

If the cutting arm is a "tangential" arm then the "normal" arm must be a "radial" arm.  In a radial arm, you can have two sorts of pivots ... a "unipivot" (like the Graham - ie. a needle) or a "gimbal" pivot (like the SME).

Regards,

Andy

nathanm

am I nuts or does the last track on my LP's sound worst.....
« Reply #18 on: 30 Nov 2004, 10:47 pm »
Quote from: andyr
If the cutting arm is a "tangential" arm then the "normal" arm must be a "radial" arm.  In a radial arm, you can have two sorts of pivots ... a "unipivot" (like the Graham - ie. a needle) or a "gimbal" pivot (like the SME).Regards, Andy


:scratch:  Yes, I know...but I'm not sure what you're getting at.  :?:

The idea is that if the record was cut in a straight line (as I assume all records are) a playback arm that also moves in a straight line gains an advantage over a playback arm that moves in a slight arc, right?

John Casler

am I nuts or does the last track on my LP's sound worst.....
« Reply #19 on: 1 Dec 2004, 12:11 am »
Quote from: nathanm
Quote from: andyr
If the cutting arm is a "tangential" arm then the "normal" arm must be a "radial" arm.  In a radial arm, you can have two sorts of pivots ... a "unipivot" (like the Graham - ie. a needle) or a "gimbal" pivot (like the SME).Regards, Andy


:scratch:  Yes, I know...but I'm not sure what you're getting at.  :?:

The idea is that if the record was cut in a straight line (as I assume all records are) a playback arm that also moves in a straight line gains an advantage over a playback arm that moves in a slight arc, right?


My first "straight line" tracker was the Rabco ST7, and although it was hard to set up, it did seem to generally have better sound in the inside grooves (ones towards the center)

Which generally is the big selling point for "straightline" arms and one of the debates with straight and curved arms.



Back in the early 70's Garrard even developed a headshell that rotated to match the groove angle, but it wasn't much of an improvement.  It was called the "tangential tracking arm"  Seems to me the table was called the "Zero 100", or something like that.

Look here in the 1971 paragraph  http://www.garrard501.com/history.html