[Blackmore]

Hey Eric,

Do either of these days sound good to you?  January 20 or January 21?  I will have shipped the McIntosh monos back and will reinstall the SET/Lowther set up by then.

[eric1]

Hey Eric,

Do either of these days sound good to you?  January 20 or January 21?  I will have shipped the McIntosh monos back and will reinstall the SET/Lowther set up by then.

The 21st would be great, but you don't have to switch systems just for me.

[pinkfloyd4ever]

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So, that leads me to the system I'm using now. Here's a pic:



So here is the story behind this system. Currently my house is under major renovations...renovations to the point we moved out. In turn, I needed tunes so I grabbed some of my old vintage gear that has been completely restored (all new caps and critical resistors) and tossed together a killer little vintage system. I'm using an HH Scott 299A (6BQ5) integrated that has both MM and MC phono inputs. I swiped the Merrill turntable out of my big Mac 'n B&W system. It's got a Denon DL-110 cart, soon to be swapped out for a Dynavector 17D Karat. Digital is a spare netbook with JRiver feeding the MHDT Stockholm DAC. Speaker cables are mis-matched zip cord. Interconnects are Rat Shack or something cheesy I had laying around and the power cords are...who knows... The speakers are ADS L780s circa late 1980s, un-restored.

Best part of this system? You can't sit in the sweet spot. I've got it jammed in a corner and you sit off axis.

What this does is it takes the gear right out of the equation. No longer are you listening to gear. You are now listening (and likely singing to) music. This system is all about the tone.... and it just sucks you in, plain and simple. It has plenty of detail if you choose to listen at that level but I prefer not to. I'm simply smitten with the sound. Something a little bass shy? Reach over an spin the bass knobs. Little short on treble on a dull recording? Twist the treble controls.

Honestly, I couldn't be happier, in fact I was talking to Blackmore last night about selling all the 'audiophile' crap I've got and going with this system (or one of the other three like this that I've got). These things just take me back to the music, which is all I ever cared about before I fell into the audiophile trap.

That typed, the Mac 'n B&W system just kills when it comes to the visceral side of listening. The little HH Scott system can't even dream of the slam that 450wpc of Mac power driving the 800Ds provides. It literally shakes the entire house....and I need that sometimes. For that reason, I likely won't dump the big 'reference' system, but boy it sure is tempting. The longer I live with this simple system, the deeper I fall for it.

So, long winding answer to your question....we don't do true 'single full range drivers' here in town. Just wide range with big woofers to augment the bass. This, in my opinion, is the best way to do them.

Apologies in advance for the threadjack here…

Scott, your story has me somewhat fascinated. You may remember me.  We met once nearly 10 years ago when you let me hold a headphone-centric shindig at your place. 

Anyway, craft beer and homebrewing (as well as working full-time while going to engineering school) sucked me away from the audio hobby for a while, but I’m getting more interested in audio again lately.

I’m trying to avoid the “audiophile trap” you speak of.  Keep it about the music rather than the equipment.  But I remember being absolutely wowed when I heard your system. It was the wide-range Lowthers with subs at that time. I’ve heard little else to compare it to though in the way of true audiophile systems. But I’d what really wowed me the most was the realism, like the band/orchestra/singer was right there in your basement.

Anyway, I’m trying to decide on a reasonably-priced ($4-600ish) vintage tube receiver or integrated to get my feet wet in the loudspeaker side of tube audio. I love the realism of tubes, and I‘d like to be able to experience it whenever I want, on speakers, at home.  Right now I only hear tubes via my tube hybrid headphone amp at work. 

So far I’ve just been reading a lot.  I’d prefer to stay away from power amps for now, as those obviously carry the associated extra costs of a preamp, separate phono stage, etc.  I see a lot of people recommending vintage Fisher and Sherwood receivers and Scott integrateds that I think would match my needs. I think I really need to do some listening at this point.  Hopefully some of you can help me out with that in the next year or so. Cheers,
Kevin 

[daves]

Kevin, check out my ad on page 15 of the flea market thread for my tube gear. Scott will have some recommendations for you, but half of what he is going to recommend I have for sale, and ready to be demoed. I also have much to listen to, for comparison. I also might have some speakers, if you need.

[Scott F.]

Hi Kevin,

As you might expect, I'd recommend a vintage HH Scott 299 or a Fisher 400 or 500. Both, when fully restored, sound really good. You should be able to find one in the price range you've set. The trick will be finding one that has been restored for that price. The good news is, if you don't and it breaks, Mike Missel can get it up and running again pretty reasonably.

Scott

[pinkfloyd4ever]

Thanks guys. daves, do you still have all of those?

All else equal, I prefer receivers because I still like to listen to KDHX (at home) about once a week.

I like the look of the Fisher 400/500/800s a lot, especially the ones with the "magic eye" signal strength tubes.


Scott, why'd you end up going with the Scott 299 over a Fisher 400/500?

[daves]

PF4E, I have all these, and a few dozen more, that we routinely rotate at Chez Maison in south county. You need to stop being a stranger, and stop by some of the GAS functions. The next one is the 22nd of this month.

[Scott F.]

Scott, why'd you end up going with the Scott 299 over a Fisher 400/500?

Mostly because those are what I found first when I used to comb the antique shops for tube gear. That and I don't listen to over the air radio much other than talk radio. That said, I found a Scott 330 receiver and multiplexer a while back. I need to fix it though. It worked for a while then gave up the ghost. Also, I like the classic, gold faced look of the Scott gear.

The Fishers are nice. One thing to consider, when you look under the hood of a receiver verses an integrated, the integrated is FAR simpler to work on. Granted, you'll likely leave repairs up to Mike Missel, I tend to do my own repairs when I have the time.

You won't go wrong with either, a Scott or a Fisher.

[eric1]

You guys are using old tubed receivers??? What is that like the 60's vintage? Most of the stuff I see on EBAY doesn't even work, and looks worse. Then you play them through super efficient speakers?

[Scott F.]

Sure, why not? Most of these old receivers and integrated's put out 20-30wpc and sound marvelous. Granted, the sound isn't as refined as 'audiophile' gear but it is eminently listenable....and quite honestly, more seductive.

As far as speakers go, most of the vintage speakers we listen to are ~88db sensitive and they play and sound just fine. Sure, you aren't going to play them at concert levels but for passive listening, systems like this are great.

One thing with these old systems, you have to know how to repair them, that or have a great repair tech close by, like Mike. Once they are completely restored (not just fixed), these things are good for another 50 years. Weekends and when I work out of the house, my old HH Scott stays one all day and most of the evening. I've got a 78 system where I use a mono-amp from 1954 (Stomberg Carlson). It still works just fine and sounds even better.

...these systems simply reflect your priorities....gear or music....just sayin' 

[Bob in St. Louis]

...these systems simply reflect your priorities....gear or music....just sayin' 

That's it, right there.

[Scott F.]

That's it, right there.

..gimme an AMEN brother 

[Bob in St. Louis]

[eric1]

I wasn't judging, I was just asking questions. 

[Bob in St. Louis]

Nah, you're good, I don't think anybody took it that way. 

[Scott F.]

Not at all. Its all good.

Most of the site here couldn't listen to one of these systems. They aren't revealing enough. You really have to shed the audiophile moniker to appreciate what these systems do. Once you come to the realization that sitting in the sweet spot listening to minutia can ruin your love of music, only then do you come to really appreciate what these systems do so well. You don't exclude songs, artists or albums because they are crappy recordings. You simply twist one of the tone controls and enjoy the music.

That's not to say I don't enjoy and appreciate my other 'audiophile' system, I simply give this type of system the credit it deserves as it conveys music so well.

[eric1]

I would be on board with a system that was forgiving enough that I could listen to the poor recordings of music I REALLY like, but sounds like poop through my regular system that is too revealing!!!

[Scott F.]

You might just need to look into a system like this. You literally stop listening to gear and just listen to music. It takes some re-training of your brain but its well worth it...honest






.....hey Blackmore, I might just have another convert on the hook 

[Pete Schumacher]

I've heard them for 15+ years and owned them for 12 years.  Please note that there is no perfect speaker, you just choose the best set of compromises for your situation.  Single (extended range) drivers have the following advantages:

1.)  Coherency (most sound comes from the same source, not a cone/dome or cone/ribbon mix)

Also a disadvantage in that cones can not replicate high frequencies with the same accuracy as a driver designed to cover that range.

2.)  Better imaging (the single point source ideal)

Imaging is more a property of left/right matching than point source origination.  Imaging is directly tied to our ability to locate sound sources, and that is the realm of high frequency transducers. 

3.)  Perfect time alignment (by definition)

That is an advantage, but one easily overcome with proper crossover design and driver choices.

4.)  No phasing issues between drivers in the critical midrange (no crossover)

Crossovers can be made to offer no phasing issues at all.

5.)  Increased efficiency (crossovers lose roughly 20%)

That statement is wholly inaccurate.  Crossovers with low resistance inductors lose at most, less than 2%.  For example, if the inductor in series with an 8 Ohm woofer has .1 Ohm series resistance, the loss is only .1/8 or 1.25%.

6.)  Better synergy between amp and speakers (amp "sees" the simpler load better)

Crossovers can actually provide a flatter impedance for the amp than a single driver with no crossover components applied.

And single driver speakers have the following disadvantages:

1.)  Extremely difficult to obtain full range response (resulting in use of large/exotic cabinets)
2.)  Limited dynamics (can't have it all)
3.)  Limited output (from most examples)
4.)  Limited high frequency dispersion (due to relatively large driver diameter)
5.)  The drivers can be quite expensive (but only one needed and no crossover)
6.)  The ideal can be augmented with super tweeters or subwoofers

So single driver speakers are best suited for small ensembles in smaller spaces at lower volume levels.  I enjoy mostly small ensemble jazz and classical music near-field in a 8ft x 13ft x 21ft room.  My speakers are floor standing transmission lines.  The drivers (no longer available) are very heavy 8 inch, AlNiCo magnets, and cost $575 each when last available.  Note that I've added ambience tweeters (Late Ceiling Splash, located on the floor behind the speakers thanks to Duke LeJeune) to improve high frequency response and enlarge soundstage.  If used with a subwoofer, the single driver/speaker can be smaller/simpler/cheaper (check out Omega here at Audio Circle).

[sturgus]

Its definitely not better. Just easier and most certainly different. OK, so here's the story:

A while back, and for the best part of a decade previous, me and Blackmore were into 'single drivers'. In our world, single drivers weren't "single". We cut them off at around 150Hz and rolled in active 12" or 15" woofers (Altecs) below them with an active crossover and an amp. We weren't running the Lowthers "full" range, just "wide" range (150Hz to ~15kHz, no need for a tweeter above). The Lowthers were driven with SETs, usually 300Bs, 2A3s or 45s. The woofers were driven with anything from a pair of Antique Sound Lab Wave 8s to 55wpc AKSA kit amps.

Here is a pic of my old SET/Open Baffle system


This system was phenomenal. It did literally everything right and was unbelievably inviting but, it took up a lot of real estate and cost several hundred bucks a year to operate (read=new driver and power tubes).

So I got a wild hair up my butt and decided to completely change my system to something much simpler (sort of). Here is a pic of my latest system:


Since this pic, I've installed a new DIY rack and lost a digit. As you can see, I'm doing McIntosh and B&W speakers.


So, that leads me to the system I'm using now. Here's a pic:



So here is the story behind this system. Currently my house is under major renovations...renovations to the point we moved out. In turn, I needed tunes so I grabbed some of my old vintage gear that has been completely restored (all new caps and critical resistors) and tossed together a killer little vintage system. I'm using an HH Scott 299A (6BQ5) integrated that has both MM and MC phono inputs. I swiped the Merrill turntable out of my big Mac 'n B&W system. It's got a Denon DL-110 cart, soon to be swapped out for a Dynavector 17D Karat. Digital is a spare netbook with JRiver feeding the MHDT Stockholm DAC. Speaker cables are mis-matched zip cord. Interconnects are Rat Shack or something cheesy I had laying around and the power cords are...who knows... The speakers are ADS L780s circa late 1980s, un-restored.

Best part of this system? You can't sit in the sweet spot. I've got it jammed in a corner and you sit off axis.

What this does is it takes the gear right out of the equation. No longer are you listening to gear. You are now listening (and likely singing to) music. This system is all about the tone.... and it just sucks you in, plain and simple. It has plenty of detail if you choose to listen at that level but I prefer not to. I'm simply smitten with the sound. Something a little bass shy? Reach over an spin the bass knobs. Little short on treble on a dull recording? Twist the treble controls.

Honestly, I couldn't be happier, in fact I was talking to Blackmore last night about selling all the 'audiophile' crap I've got and going with this system (or one of the other three like this that I've got). These things just take me back to the music, which is all I ever cared about before I fell into the audiophile trap.

That typed, the Mac 'n B&W system just kills when it comes to the visceral side of listening. The little HH Scott system can't even dream of the slam that 450wpc of Mac power driving the 800Ds provides. It literally shakes the entire house....and I need that sometimes. For that reason, I likely won't dump the big 'reference' system, but boy it sure is tempting. The longer I live with this simple system, the deeper I fall for it.

So, long winding answer to your question....we don't do true 'single full range drivers' here in town. Just wide range with big woofers to augment the bass. This, in my opinion, is the best way to do them.

So I decided to go for something simple!!!