Where to use My Tube amps?

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Danny Richie

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Re: Where to use My Tube amps?
« Reply #20 on: 5 Jan 2017, 07:26 pm »
Sounds like you have a good handle on it. And I agree with your assessment. There are ways to do it right, but man is it costly.

audiogurujax

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Re: Where to use My Tube amps?
« Reply #21 on: 5 Jan 2017, 11:05 pm »
Danny going back to my Neo3 Neo8 debate, I measured my current neo8PDR array (9 drivers) using the DEQX and and my Earthworks M30 mic and they go nearly flat all the way to 17,500hz and go down very sharp afterwards but there is absolutely no peek at 13k is basically flat from 800hz to 17,500hz I re measured using my Minidsp Umik and REW with nearly identical results.

So I am confused

Based on the data I have so far I think the benefit of investing a lot of money to get 48 NEO3-PDR is not that big and there are actually some benefits in using the NEO8-PDR instead.


In favor of Neo8:

1) I don't think I can hear a lot above 17,500hz LOL.
2) I can cross the NEO8-PDR easy at .8-1khz using a low order filter vs the NEO3-PDR at 1-1.5khz Highorder
3) The sound signature is very similar
4) Not sure if the Power handling of a NEO8-PDR array will be higher than that of a NEO3-PDR array
5) I feel I am pushing the limits of the NEO3-PDR by crossing them at 1-1.5khz VS the NEO8-PDR will be very comfortable crossed at 1khz
6) I save over $3,000 :)


In favor of Neo3:

1) I feel like I am cutting corners, It is obvious that the perfect Driver will be 48 of your Kapton based Neo 3 (Coming Soon)
2) Using 48 of your Neo3 will better match the gain of the Neo10 so much that there is a possibility of making a passive crossover for the speaker as a future Project since the array will have a Wing like the Serenity Acoustic that you built only taller.

Someone needs to decide for me! This is driving me nuts LOL


 

Danny Richie

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Re: Where to use My Tube amps?
« Reply #22 on: 6 Jan 2017, 12:15 am »
Danny going back to my Neo3 Neo8 debate, I measured my current neo8PDR array (9 drivers) using the DEQX and and my Earthworks M30 mic and they go nearly flat all the way to 17,500hz and go down very sharp afterwards but there is absolutely no peek at 13k is basically flat from 800hz to 17,500hz I re measured using my Minidsp Umik and REW with nearly identical results.

So I am confused

The response of a full line will be very different than that of a single unit. Imagine if you started at 20kHz and kept that point the same, but then lift the entire response up from that point. So the 20kHz point stays the same but at 1kHz it might be up 15db or more over a single unit. So what used to be a little peak at 13kHz is now fairly minimized. For the LS-6 and LS-9's I still added a slight notch filter to bring it down a few db.

And the actual roll off of the Neo 8's is not as bad as it will measure in a room response as any room response is going to roll off the top end.

Quote
Based on the data I have so far I think the benefit of investing a lot of money to get 48 NEO3-PDR is not that big and there are actually some benefits in using the NEO8-PDR instead.

In favor of Neo8:

There are some differences.

Quote
1) I don't think I can hear a lot above 17,500hz LOL.

Yes, but there are still some spacial cues at 20kHz and up that contribute to imaging and sound stage layering that the Neo 3's will handle better.

Quote
2) I can cross the NEO8-PDR easy at .8-1khz using a low order filter vs the NEO3-PDR at 1-1.5khz Highorder

It is nothing to cross a line of them that low. Electrically crossing the Neo 3's at 1.2kHz is like crossing a single unit at 3kHz because the first cap in the crossover is very small.

Quote
3) The sound signature is very similar

Yes, close.

Quote
4) Not sure if the Power handling of a NEO8-PDR array will be higher than that of a NEO3-PDR array

Power handling is huge with either one.

Quote
5) I feel I am pushing the limits of the NEO3-PDR by crossing them at 1-1.5khz VS the NEO8-PDR will be very comfortable crossed at 1khz


Again it is nothing to cross them that low. The coupling of the lower wavelengths increase acoustic output. Electrically they are well protected.

Quote
6) I save over $3,000 :)

True.


Quote
In favor of Neo3:

1) I feel like I am cutting corners, It is obvious that the perfect Driver will be 48 of your Kapton based Neo 3 (Coming Soon)

True. Cost aside, I'd use the custom Neo 3's.

Quote
2) Using 48 of your Neo3 will better match the gain of the Neo10 so much that there is a possibility of making a passive crossover for the speaker as a future Project since the array will have a Wing like the Serenity Acoustic that you built only taller.

There is the big bonus. The custom Neo 3's should reach a solid 97db. So if wired right you could match impedance's and SPL output. And if that is the case then you could use a well designed passive network and one good quality DAC and never have to put any of that other crap in the signal path.

With the Neo 8 pdr's there is no way of matching the output levels of 8 Neo 10's.

Quote
Someone needs to decide for me! This is driving me nuts LOL

I know which way I'd go.

nickd

Re: Where to use My Tube amps?
« Reply #23 on: 7 Jan 2017, 06:14 pm »
Having lived with the Ephipany 20/21 and the LS9, there is a difference between the Neo 3 and the Neo 8 in sound regardless of what you measure.

The Neo 3's in a line source remain the best highs I have ever heard, period. The Neo 8,s are amazing and perhaps better in the high mids. But no match for the Neo 3's up top.

bdp24

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Re: Where to use My Tube amps?
« Reply #24 on: 8 Jan 2017, 12:18 am »
How low can the NEO 8 be used as the middle driver in a 3-way application?
« Last Edit: 8 Jan 2017, 10:44 am by bdp24 »

Danny Richie

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Re: Where to use My Tube amps?
« Reply #25 on: 8 Jan 2017, 02:33 pm »
How low can the NEO 8 be used as the middle driver in a 3-way application?

If you take away its sensitivity you can probably push it down to 800Hz or less.

bdp24

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Re: Where to use My Tube amps?
« Reply #26 on: 8 Jan 2017, 11:47 pm »
Only that low, ay Richie? How about if used as a line array, like six or eight long/tall?

Danny Richie

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Re: Where to use My Tube amps?
« Reply #27 on: 9 Jan 2017, 01:17 am »
Only that low, ay Richie? How about if used as a line array, like six or eight long/tall?

In the case you can cross them that low without loss of sensitivity.

It also depends on how they are loaded in both cases.

bdp24

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Re: Where to use My Tube amps?
« Reply #28 on: 10 Jan 2017, 04:09 pm »
In the case you can cross them that low without loss of sensitivity.

It also depends on how they are loaded in both cases.

By "that low", what do you mean Richie? As low as say 400Hz? Loading would be in the middle of a flat baffle 16" wide.

Danny Richie

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Re: Where to use My Tube amps?
« Reply #29 on: 10 Jan 2017, 04:37 pm »
By "that low", what do you mean Richie? As low as say 400Hz? Loading would be in the middle of a flat baffle 16" wide.

Yes, by loading I mean how the back wave is damped or how the front wave is separated by the back wave. That determines how low they will play.

Also keep in mind that a wide baffle is the enemy of good sound. Wide baffles add a lot of surface reflections that will make the sound two dimensional. It will sound like it is playing from the baffle forward. It is very important to minimize the surface reflections.

When I design an open baffle speaker I have gone through as many as 40 to 50 different baffle size and shape combinations to see how it effects the response.

bdp24

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Re: Where to use My Tube amps?
« Reply #30 on: 10 Jan 2017, 06:38 pm »
The baffle is the 16" wide by 6' tall MDF mid/tweeter panel of the old Magneplanar Tympani T-IV. The panel contains both a magnetic-planar midrange strip and a ribbon tweeter. The six NEO 8's would be substituted for the original m-p midrange, which is used from 500Hz (1st order high-pass filter) to 3kHz (slope unspecified). Doable?

audiogurujax

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Re: Where to use My Tube amps?
« Reply #31 on: 10 Jan 2017, 07:07 pm »
Bdp24 my current speakers have 9 Neo8 PDR and 12 Dayton RS180 7" woofers per channel, the baffle is 16.5" wife and after measuring we cross them at 420hz and it is pretty flat, but to give you an idea, i am building a new speaker that will have 8 Neo 10 and 21 Neo3 per channel only because that is a balance array and I will be able to have Danny built a nice passive crossover, reason ! After spending a fortune in multiple DSP Amps etc. I can tell you that DSP kill the space music will measure perfect it will have a lot of detail but it will sound flat,2d etc. and trust me I currently have a heavily modified DEQX HDP4 and I am bypassing its weak area (the DACs) by using 2 Auralic Vegas DACs and still. Btw if you want my neo8 I can give you a nice deal!

bdp24

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Re: Where to use My Tube amps?
« Reply #32 on: 10 Jan 2017, 08:11 pm »
Bdp24 my current speakers have 9 Neo8 PDR and 12 Dayton RS180 7" woofers per channel, the baffle is 16.5" wife and after measuring we cross them at 420hz and it is pretty flat, but to give you an idea, i am building a new speaker that will have 8 Neo 10 and 21 Neo3 per channel only because that is a balance array and I will be able to have Danny built a nice passive crossover, reason ! After spending a fortune in multiple DSP Amps etc. I can tell you that DSP kill the space music will measure perfect it will have a lot of detail but it will sound flat,2d etc. and trust me I currently have a heavily modified DEQX HDP4 and I am bypassing its weak area (the DACs) by using 2 Auralic Vegas DACs and still. Btw if you want my neo8 I can give you a nice deal!

I have a First Watt B4 x/o---all discrete, no opamps or ic's. I would never use digital for anything but bass! I'll send you a pm about the NEO 8's. Thanks---Eric.

Danny Richie

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Re: Where to use My Tube amps?
« Reply #33 on: 10 Jan 2017, 09:09 pm »
The baffle is the 16" wide by 6' tall MDF mid/tweeter panel of the old Magneplanar Tympani T-IV. The panel contains both a magnetic-planar midrange strip and a ribbon tweeter. The six NEO 8's would be substituted for the original m-p midrange, which is used from 500Hz (1st order high-pass filter) to 3kHz (slope unspecified). Doable?

I used 6 custom (higher sensitivity) Neo 8's in the LS-6. They crossed over at 1,100Hz and I had to use a 3rd order filter for it.

I think you'll have quite a mis-match in sensitivity to the Maggie panels to there may need to be some resistors in play there. And it will be a real stretch to run them down that low especially with a first order electrical filter. They'd be playing right on their Fs.

bdp24

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Re: Where to use My Tube amps?
« Reply #34 on: 11 Jan 2017, 05:03 am »
Thanks Richie, valuable information.