[WerTicus]

i have photo's of the ref1's if anyone wants to pm their email addy to me i can send it

[Rocket]

Hi Guys,

I don't want to be accused of 'shilling' for War Audio and i actually recommended Zalytron speaker kits from the states.  The Zalytron kits are designed by well known and respected xover designers like Joe D'appolito, Dennis Murphy and others.

I have heard a number of the designs and Zalytron has them available for excellent prices.  Similiar designs can be bought from War Audio and they can also build a custom speaker design for you.

I like the reference 1's however i prefer the Raven 2 tweeter and 2 x 6.5 inch phl mid/bass drivers which is similiar to the phenomenal design.  I also like the Stealth better which utilises a raven 1 and 2 x 7inch accuton mid/bass drivers.

Regards

Rod

[DSK]

****DSK... You need to make a trip to Perth some time  

I'd love to, never been west of Adelaide! Maybe one day.

Also i believe i made an error when i said it was the 2" ceramic, Its this driver:
http://www.thiel-partner.de/e/data/products/c_drivers/C79/e_C79-6.html

Ahh, the 3-incher. This is recommeded for use down to 200hz (vs. 800hz for the 2-incher) ...makes more sense.

DSK you mention a smaller lighter faster woofer would be better! Cabasse is a very exotic piece of work... its easily lighter than anything you have seen before. Its made of a honey comb mesh that is very very strong and lighter than carbon fiber, its easily lighter than a 5inch polypropolne woofer for example and mind blowingly fast. Only problem is Cabasse have stopped manufacturing them and if you want one it will cost you $1500 each ... though they were once $700.

Wow! Sounds awesome, but ain't no way I'm paying $3000 for a pair of woofers ...whether I want to or not!   What are your thoughts on the quality of bass from the 7" and 8" Accuton ceramic woofers? Less analytical sounding than the SEAS magnesiums? Supposedly the SEAS magnesium 7" is more detailed than the good ol'  ScanSpeak 8545 7", but has less dynamics and extension. I'm guessing that the comparison of the SEAS to the Accuton would be similar.

dsk the xo is 300 and 3500.  25 to 45khz + - 2 db.

Hey, that's exactly what I'm after! This seems reasonable with the recommended range (400hz-4khz) of the Accuton 3-incher, though the 5-incher is rated 33hz-4khz. I like the idea of pairing the ceramic mid with Raven ribbon but my concern is that the Raven R1 is 95db sensitivity and the R2 is 98db sensitivity (vs. 88.5db for the Accuton 3-incher & 89.2db for the 5-incher). This means padding the tweeter down which supposedly ( ) has a negative impact on the sonics.

The Ref1 is beyond my means these days, so I'm thinking of building a simple TMW 3-way consisting of:
Tweeter: Accuton 1" or 1.2" ceramic, or Hiquphon, or Raven R1.
Midrange: Accuton 3" or 5" ceramic.
Woofer: Accuton 8" ceramic, or ScanSpeak 7" or 8" sliced paper.
This would be in a sealed enclosure and supported by my sealed sub.

Trouble is, I'm not at all certain that any of these combinations would be better than the Ambience ribbons (with SE xo), at least from 400hz up.  

[DSK]

I like the reference 1's however i prefer the Raven 2 tweeter and 2 x 6.5 inch phl mid/bass drivers which is similiar to the phenomenal design. I also like the Stealth better which utilises a raven 1 and 2 x 7inch accuton mid/bass drivers.
 ...

Hi Rod,
I'd be very interested in your thoughts on the sonic differences between the Reference-1, the Stealth, and the Phenomenal-like MTM.

Cheers,
Darren.

[WerTicus]

***rod
Well though I have done some work for WAR in terms of art... I wouldnt be saying they sound the best if they didnt sound like it!

So shilling me up baby. (not that i actually know what that means rod)

****dsk
I have not heard the ceramic woofers yet.  Pat says they are great but just the cabasse is better.

the tweeter is padded down but it still sounds far better than any other tweeter out there.  I pad mine down with 4 resistors in parrellel of high value to increase overall bandwidth to the tweeter.  The tweeters themselves have proper binding posts on them that can handle very very thick wire.

i would probably choose the ceramics over scanspeak woofers
on the basis of coolness factor im sure they both sound great

[jules]

Werticus,

the Thiele site is fantastic for detail on the accutons. The waterfalls are so spectacular I had trouble figuring out what all the axes were about! It's a great source of info though and though I haven't done a price cross check it could be a good source for single components.

As far as the cost of the Cabasse goes ... I've suddenly decided that maybe an enormously fast piston action isn't all that important in a bass   .

Rod and DSK,

I think it was Echidna who made the "shilling" comment was it not? I think I have to agree with him about the look of the W.A.R. systems but at the same time they do have a great range of speaker brands and there's potential in there for all sorts of combinations. What concerns me slightly about these MTM arrangements [apart from the very fact that they are MTM] is that the speakers are around the 7" mark and  for this reason they fall away fairly sharply below 100Hz. Certainly I suppose this means they are great in the mid/upper part of their range but they look light on at the low end.  DSK has covered the very low end of the problem [up to about 70Hz] with his sub but even so that would still leave a gap in the 70-100HZ range. A quick check on even the 8" ceramic shows that it too falls away sharply below 100HZ.

The solution on paper looks to me like a 10" bass [at least] somewhere in the system but this leads back to a three way ... say 10" bass, maybe 4" ceramic mid and ribbon tweeter. Covering the mids and highs doesn't look all that hard. Getting a good even bass seems tricky. Why is it that the MTM arrangement is favoured over the three way system currently?

As a point of interest, the system I am reluctantly replacing [due to age] used a 10" bass with a 10" passive and was pretty flat in response from 60HZ to 550HZ. The mid was a 2.25" Dome and went from 550HZ to 6,000. The tweeter was a dome that  covered 6,000 to 20,000.

DSK, your three way looks pretty good to me, particularly if the ceramics are as good as they are said to be [and several people here have confirmed this]. I do  wonder if a 10" bass might work better even though you do have the sub backing your system.


jules

ps Getting anything out of Elliot at Zalytron is like trying to get blood out of a stone. I undestand he doesn't like email all that much   . At the same time their stuff is very interesting with a number of kit options and a distinct tendancy towards high efficiency systems.

[Rocket]

Hi Guys,

Clarification:  I think i may have in the past been a little over the top regarding War Audio and other hifi products that i own and therefore i don't want to be guilty of 'Shilling'.  Echidna and i worked this out via pm but i am just being careful regarding my comments.  I haven't heard the different speaker brands in the states i.e. vmps, gr research or selah audio and a host of others and therefore i don't know how they compare to War Audio speakers.

For the price you can't go past Zalytron speaker kits imo.  They use premium quality components and xovers and don't cost a lot.

DSK,

It is difficult to describe the differences between the Stealth and Reference 1's as i have heard them in different locations.  I have heard the phl speaker which uses a raven 2 tweeter and i preferred the sound.  It sounded a little more transparent, was drier and did not sound as warm as the ref 1's.  This is the best i can articulate the differences in speakers.

Pat has a design using a raven 1, phl midrange driver and 12 inch phl bass driver in a floorstander configuration which i think would sound excellent.

I hope this helps.

Regards

Rod

ps my speakers are an mtm configuration using raven 1 tweeter and focal 7 inch kevlar mid/bass drivers.  They are in the systems gallery somewhere on audiocircle.  The bass sounds fine and is all that i need.

[jules]

Is there another W.A.R. in Australia? I ask this because although there are other kit producers like VAF and Whatmough, they produce set lines. As kits go, the top of the line VAF is frighteningly expensive. Whatmough is cheaper but they will not disclose the type of drivers they use which made me slightly doubtful. So if anyone can name a source [similar to W.A.R] in Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane or Adelaide please do. Unfortunately when I said I was off to W.A.R. I was only referring to a cyber visit. I'm in NSW and would much prefer to be able to walk through the door of something closer to home.

It's a bit hard to evaluate the "host of US kits" when there isn't somewhere to listen to them so I think your support for W.A.R. is fair Rod and the rest of us should be old enough to make our own decisions anyway  

jules

[Rocket]

Hi Jules,

Contact War Audio they should have some customers speakers you can hear in sydney.  There kits aren't cheap though:

http://www.warco.com.au/waraudio/

You could also try to hear the aksonics which i'm sure will sound excellent as well.

Regards

Rod

[WerTicus]

war attends shows over east now and again and in america war will come back to win ces again, like in 2001.

[DSK]

DSK, your three way looks pretty good to me, particularly if the ceramics are as good as they are said to be [and several people here have confirmed this]. I do wonder if a 10" bass might work better even though you do have the sub backing your system.
 ...

Jules, you mentioned the 2.25" midrange in your older speaker. Did you find a lack of midrange dynamics with a mid this small crossed over at 550hz to a large-ish woofer?

Jules, yes the rapid rolloff is an issue with the ceramic woofers and I can't afford the Cabasses  

To extend the bass further without resorting to a 10" plus woofer (higher moving mass, wider baffle, etc), I'm thinking along the lines of:

Hiquphon OW3 0.75” soft dome tweeter
(2-25khz, 100w, 8ohms, 89db, FS=900hz, ideal xo=3khz, measures ??db +/-1db 2.5-25k)
Accuton C89-T6 5” ceramic midrange
(33-4khz, 100w, 6ohms, 89.2db, FS=33.6hz, Mms=9.3g, measures 87.5db +/-3db 90hz-5khz)
ScanSpeak 21W8555-00 8.25” hard paper woofer
(20-600hz, 100w, 8ohms, 87db, FS=20hz, Mms=32g, measures 87.5db +/-2.5db 50hz-1500hz) This woofer has the SD1 motor and is -3db at 53hz in a 19L sealed box with Qts=0.? thus allowing a cross to the sub in the low 40hz range.  

XO's would be approx 300hz & 3khz. In 2 minds about whether to go for the Raven R1 as the tweeter.

It's all just a mental exercise at the moment as I don't have the funds and I have a lot to learn about xo design before opening my wallet anyway. I also need to try to listen to some speakers using some of these drivers to determine whether they would be any better than my Ambience SE ribbon hybrids. Sigh ... it's all good fun  

[WerTicus]

you will be wanting the ravens

Every time i sit down and listen to the ravens i just think 'dammmmmmn these are good tweeters" without fail everytime

[jules]

DSK.

again I pretty much agree with the size of drivers and cross overs that you suggest though I can't look at the Thiele specs/graphs at the moment and they are revealing.  I also suspect that Werticus is right and that it's hard to go past  a Raven given what they can do.

The 2.25" dome mid sounded fine to me. It was part of a big B&O system so it wasn't  a wierd one off.

The question seems to be whether to put key listening range frequencies at the top of the range of a bass [which could be hindered by inertia etc] or at the bottom of the range of a mid [which presumably might not be able to move enough air] but given the apparent quality of these ceramics, it seems like a good idea to push a bit more work in their direction. The idea of a cone that could last for about 200 years has appeal too  .

What I don't get about all of this is that this arrangement, while it seems logical, is not particularly common. I suppose that what looks good on paper doesn't necessarily work in practice  and the predominance of d'Appolito MTMs has me thinking that the next step I am going to take is to do some more reading on the subject  

jules

[DSK]

What I don't get about all of this is that this arrangement, while it seems logical, is not particularly common. I suppose that what looks good on paper doesn't necessarily work in practice and the predominance of d'Appolito MTMs has me thinking that the next step I am going to take is to do some more reading on the subject  ...

I know what you mean ...puzzling. I don't yet know enough to be able to answer that. Perhaps it is (partly) due to the fact that, in a 3-way, the midrange driver is usually wired out of phase??? ...shrug....

[JohnR]

Hi, if you want the challenge of DIYing a three-way from scratch, it seems to me a good choice of drivers might be an Adire Extremis 6, an Adire WR125S, and a Neo3 PDR. All of these drivers are quite flat (according to published curves), and have low reactance, wide bandwidth, and low distortion. The result should make for a lot of flexibility and forgiveness. And they will set you back less than $US200 per side. Sensitivity will be low but the speaker will also be quite compact.

Hm....... !!

[jules]

Thanks John,

I think Echidna recommended having a look at Adire too.  You pick out flexibility and forgiveness as important. Exotic speakers might lead to exotic mistakes too I guess.

jules

[DSK]

JohnR,
Thanks for the tip on the Adires, their specs & descriptions are interesting. I agree that, for a newbie speaker designer/builder, these may be excellent. However, although definitely a newbie in this field, I'm coming at it from a different perspective. I recognise that I cannot afford the entry fee for manufactured speakers of the calibre that would be a reasonable upgrade over my Ambience ribbon hybrids (probably at least US$6k).  The Ambience ribbons are excellent (420hz up) with outstanding portayal of the human voice, piano, etc. My only small complaint is a slight lack of dynamics in the midrange, possibly due to the ribbons moving less air than a dynamic midwoofer. It may well turn out that I have to accept this in order to retain the transparency, coherence, tonality, etc that they provide. I'm really just thinking out loud at this point and enjoying the communication with other posters on this subject.  

To improve the midrange dynamics with no loss (preferably even some gains) in other areas, would take a special speaker ...probably with rigid drivers (eg. ceramic, magnesium) that provide excellent speed and minimal colouration. As a manufactured version would be too expensive, that leaves DIY. However, I don't have the time, funds or inclination to build a series of speakers (honing my design/building skills along the way) over several years, in order to get to my goal. Life is too short and/or I'm too impatient   So, although more expensive than full DIY, I would probably seek some expert assistance in the xo design. I could probably do box assembly myself.

At the moment, I'm just trying to get a reasonable idea of what drivers and speaker design (TMW, TMWW, MTM, etc) are likely to provide the best result for my situation (and an idea of cost). If I proceed I am almost certainly going with a sealed box design, for better transient response, tonality, and integration with my sealed sub. I would rather take the load of the very low frequencies off the main speakers rather than make compromises elsewhere.

The Adire drivers you mentioned seem better suited to vented designs and I don't think the paper and polypropylene cones on those models would provide the speed, transparency and detail of the Ambience ribbons, let alone provide a useful upgrade. But I agree that they may be excellent for someone looking to get experience designing/building their first speaker and/or who is not shooting quite so high.

[WerTicus]

good luck guys

I have been designing crossovers for 3 years and when i heard the ref1's i just thought 'found it'

[DSK]

... and when i heard the ref1's i just thought 'found it'

I gather the Ref1 was a ported design, WerTicus?

With the Cabasse 10" woofers now unavailable or $$$$$, any recommendations on woofers that would sonically match the Accuton ceramic midrange and be -6db at 65hz or lower in a sealed design with say Q=0.7?

[WerTicus]

yeah 1x rear port.

pat said he was going to use a PHL now that he cant get cabasse.

at least im pretty sure that is what he said.  Ill find out for you.