[Rocket]

Hi,

I don't know much about the scan speaker range of drivers and can't offer any opinion about them.  Although, they do have an excellent reputation all over the world.

It is a pity that there aren't many more hi-quality speaker kits available in oz.  In the states there is a much greater range to choose from.

Regards

Rod

[WerTicus]

i have had no problem getting anything i wanted here actually rocket...  in terms of parts

but yes kits are limited.

Though frankly i doubt ill find a better designed/ tuned speaker than anything at war which is why I choose the ref 1's

and the net has heaps and heaps of designs  you can try out!

[DSK]

I have seen but not heard these wes kits actually... just slipped my mine.

I dont think they are very high end.  Using just entry level scan speak stuff.

If you call that entry level  

Anyone have any idea as to how much better ScanSpeak's Revelator drivers sound than their "normal" drivers (eg. the famed 8545 used in many DIY speakers)?  

[WerTicus]

they sound very good...i dont know how it compares to standard scan speak but its a lot better than vifa stuff.....


....  they still dont even come close to the really exotic stuff..

eg:
ceramic accutons mids (more pistonic than the paper revs)
raven ribbons tweeters crap on any tweeter at all....(30x less mass than your rev tweeters)
cabasse honeycomb woofers (much lighter and faster woofer)

[DSK]

they sound very good...i dont know how it compares to standard scan speak but its a lot better than vifa stuff.....

....  they still dont even come close to the really exotic stuff..

eg:
ceramic accutons mids (more pistonic than the paper revs)
raven ribbons tweeters crap on any tweeter at all....(30x less mass than your rev tweeters)
cabasse honeycomb woofers (much lighter and faster woofer)

Thanks WerTicus.
From what I've read, the Accuton ceramic and SEAS magnesiums are clearly superior to paper or poly drivers in terms of detail, but require rather accurate notch filters to eliminate the sharp breakup. To a DIYer without significant xo expertise and test equipment, this could perhaps lead to less than optimal results. I've also read that these rigid drivers can tend to sound a little "lean" and "analytical".

Keep in mind that I know nothing of xo design and haven't auditioned speakers using any of these drivers. These comments are purely hearsay and things I would be concerned about and check out if I were building my own speakers.  

BTW, what are "rev tweeters", and how do the Fountek JP3 ribbon tweeters compare to the Ravens?

[EchiDna]

I've heard a REALLY good set of accuton based DIY sealed bookshelves a year or so ago at a DIY showoff event here in Singapore. The owner used the 'golden ratio' design theory and nothing more... great sound from those drivers... but OUCH rising euro... $$$$

[WerTicus]

DSK:

I am not familiar with accuton having sharp breakup but i was aware that the seas were tricky.  I was specifically refering to the ceramic mid range not the woofer.  the ceramic tweeter is also pretty good but not really as good as you can get for the money.

the speakers i have heard using these drivers are the most real sounding i have ever heard it was scary  i consider this a good thing.

rev tweeters = revelator tweeters from scan speak... i am saying that the ravens have 30x less mass than them.

Fountek jp3 ribbon i have not heard but i have seen them and they look piss weak vs the Raven in terms of weight and size.  Apparently they sound okay, but not actually anywhere near as good as the raven according to a guy who sells both. They are not all that cheap for a knock off IMO.

Echindna:
im not surprised they sound great these drivers are so much more rigid and so much less mass that it should be waaay better.   They are certainly the most expensive drivers you can get but it pays off especially where DIY is concerned.

[jules]

Anyone care to express an opinion on the Audiom TD5 tweeter? Inverted titanium dome and more expensive than some ribbons. It's part of a kit [that also uses focal 7" mid/bass in mtm] and as someone who isn't all that keen on taking on xovers it looks like a balanced set up.

I'd rather err on the side of warmth and flexibility if ribbons and ceramics etc are hard to integrate into one system.

jules

[Rocket]

Hi Jules,

I haven't heard the td5 focal tweeter but have heard most of their other oem tweeters.  I find it hard to imagine that the td5 would sound better than the raven 1 tweeter.  How much does the td5 tweeter cost?

The td5 would have great vertical dispersion than the raven.  The lack of dispersion doesn't affect me as i don't walk around the room and expect that i should be in the sweet spot like some other audiophiles think they should.

The kit i would like to build is the phenomenal which uses a raven 2 and 2 phl drivers in an mtm configuration.

Regards

Rod

[mac]

Fountek jp3 ribbon i have not heard but i have seen them and they look piss weak vs the Raven in terms of weight and size. Apparently they sound okay, but not actually anywhere near as good as the raven according to a guy who sells both. They are not all that cheap for a knock off IMO.

In the U.S. the Fountek's cost roughly 40% of what the Raven's sell for.  Sonically they are far more similar than different (I've owned both).  Not certain that the cost difference can be justified if based on performance alone.

[DSK]

Rod:

Have you heard the Phenomenal MTM's? If so, how did they sound vs your Raven/Focal MTM's?


Everyone:

I'd love to hear some first hand feedback from those who have heard the SEAS magnesiums and/or Accuton ceramic drivers, as to whether they sounded a bit on the analytical side or had natural warmth. Like Jules, I would rather err on the side of *slightly* excessive warmth rather than cold and analytical ..much more relaxing and enjoyable IMHO.

[WerTicus]

I have heard the Sigfield Linkwitz Orion’s with the Open Air magnesium midrange and the excel tweeter.

I have also heard WAR audio's reference ones with the ceramic midrange. And raven tweeter.

I think you will actually find that with speakers this good the rest of the system is more influencing on the sound than normal since these drivers simply reproduce what is there as opposed to doing there own thing like ordinary speakers.

Having said that, the Orion’s were being driven by a Denon 5900 and ASKA amps.  They sounded pretty good.

The Ref 1's were being driven by BelCanto player 1 which isn’t all that much more expensive than the 5900.  Also with a BelCanto tripath digital amp (the smaller amp), so power reserve was similar.

The orions sounded good, great even!

The ref1's sounded REAL.

To answer your question DSK:

These sorts of drivers just play what there is.

The accutons/ raven were not an unmusical driver, real just REAL real. It was getting you what was on the disc and nothing more or less. It wasn’t harsh or cold.

    It will be if your gear up stream is though!

My reasoning?  The raven tweeter (+ accuton mid+ cabasse woofer) is soooo much faster than any ordinary tweeter (and the rest) it’s just getting allll that detail that the BelCanto is renowned for being able to deliver.

The aska amp is an amp designed to sound like tubes so... you get that sound!   Certainly sounded good either way and I’m sure a lot of you tube lovers would prefer the sound of the Orion setup, however I’m 22 and have good ears .

I couldn’t go past the ref 1 setup... real! Wooooo!

The only tweeters that are better than the ravens are the BEEngineering ones.

http://www.e-speakers.com/products/beengineering.html

Made by the designer of the raven btw.  But entry level is 2k vs 500 for raven! 

Have fun kids!

[Rocket]

Hi Nathan/Dsk,

Yes i have heard the phenomenal speaker utilising the raven 2 and 2 x phl drivers in mtm configuration.  The phl drivers are excellent but are ruthlessly revealing and transparent.  Some customers didn't like the sound but i really enjoyed the speaker and would buy one in a heart beat if i had the money.  In comparison my focal speaker with raven 1 is a little warmer in its presentation but is less transparent.

I really like the reference 1 speaker but i prefer another speaker which uses the raven 1 and 2 x accuton mid/bass drivers, is a floorstander in an mtm configuration.  It totally depends on your musical preferences and no speaker is perfect for everyone.  

I haven't heard the foundtek or aurum cantus tweeters and some people prefer them to the raven.

I think the bel canto is an excellent amplifier but i think it is a bit thin in the midrange.

Regards

Rod

[jules]

Rod,

in answer to a much earlier Q you asked in this thread ... the Audiom TD5s are approx $500US each from Zalytron.

I notice you blew up your Ravens a little while ago. Did you ever find a cause for that? I am a little unnerved by anything that suggests edgy reliability when the item is so costly and you said at the time that you didn't think the [Aksa] amp was to blame. I seem to remember another comment about blown up ribbons from somewhere else that makes me wary.

Are ribbon tweeters hyper-sensitive? Is ribbon design suited to a reasonable life span [say 10 years, which is about minimal for conventional systems]?

DSK,

the sub system you have looks as though it would fit in well with what I'm doing too [with an Aksa 55N+]. A powered sub seems a neat solution to various problems and appears to allow a less compromised mid/high box/driver design along with ample power for the bass [where the amp is perhaps light on]. A handy byproduct is the fact that you don't have to spend all your money at once  

jules

[Rocket]

Hi Jules,

My ravens are the older series and don't handle as much power as the newer versions.  I had a problem when i turned on/off my bugle battery ponostage and a large pop sounded thru my system and i ripped a couple of ribbons.  

I'm a more careful now and haven't had any problems in six months.  They cost $20each to replace.

Regards

Rod

[jules]

Rod,

thanks for the info on the Ravens. That does remove my concerns and they look hard to beat on performance with the price being ok too.

Werticus,

somewhere in this thread you said that you have chosen the ref 1's [Raven (2?) tweeters, accuton ceramic (2"?) mids and cabasse (diam.?)]. Does this mean you own a set and have listened to them over many hours?

The point you make about age and hearing is totally relevant too. I'm not sure which comes first [chicken and egg situation] but it's interesting that the move toward tubes/SET/high efficiency speakers and "crystalline midrange" also corresponds with aging. Maybe these systems simplify the picture when a bit of industrial (or age) deafness makes it hard to pick out the detail.

DSK,

You seem to be looking at an upgrade on your [Ambience was it?] system and I'll be interested to know what you decide. At the moment I'm attracted by the Raven 2's but both PHL's [as in the phenomenals] and ceramic accutons [as in the ref. 1s] seem to be more in the love them or hate them zone.

jules

[WerTicus]

I have the raven 1 tweeters and have yet to tear a set of ribbons on them... I also have not clipped my amp with them attached yet - i imagine that will cost me 20$ though

I already have a spare set of ribbons just in case that happens.

The ref1's are the raven 1 tweeer the accuton ceramic 2" mid and cabasse 10inch.

I have the tweeters and the woofers at the moment and im using them in my old sytem  yet to get the whole lot but i cant wait!

However i have put about 15hrs of listening into the ref1's at war and they are the best speakers i have ever heard... the second best i have heard would be the Linkwitz Orions.

[jules]

I can well imagine the sinking feeling resulting from a ribbon popping ... must have been something of a relief to find it only cost $20 to fix although at least it sounds like a known quantity.

The Raven/Accuton/Cabasse combination is an interesting mixture of classic three way design with high tech materials. As a personal preference I still have some doubts about the D'Appolito arrangement and it's a bit hard to go past a reasonably sized driver [10"+] for good bass. Maybe this would reduce the need for a sub system too.

For me, it's off to W.A.R. for more info but this has been a very informative thread and I hope it does somehow become part of a sticky as JohnR originally suggested.

jules

[DSK]

I agree, a very interesting thread ...especially for those of us who haven't been able to hear the Accuton ceramic and SEAS magnesium drivers.

I'm a newbie to xo design, I've just started reading related material recently. Bearing that in mind, my initial thoughts are that it seems to be a big jump from a 2" mid to a 10" woofer sizewise and I wonder what this means in terms of the change in dispersion as you cross the xo frequency. I also worry that the 2" mid will lead to a lack of dynamics (doesn't move much air) in the mids and a high xo point between the two drivers (with 10" driver working up higher than I'd like). I think I would prefer to use a larger mid (Accuton ceramic 5"?) and a lower xo point to the woofer ...especially if the woofer is 10".

I haven't looked at the Cabasse woofer yet, but my current thought is that I'd rather go for a smaller, lighter, faster woofer (probably 8") in a sealed box (better transient response and tonality) even though it would mean less low end extension and the need for a sub (which I already have   ). My "newbie" impression is that this would lead to a smoother transition between the drivers dispersion-wise, and allow xo points of around 250hz and 2500-3000hz, thereby allowing the midwoofer to do basically all of the midrange and for all drivers to only operate in their optimal bandwidths with optimal dispersion (and wider sweetspot). For these reasons too, I prefer a 3-way rather than a 2-way which typically has higher IM distortion, greater compression and lower power handling. I'm thinking along the lines of a TMW or TMWW design.

To me, in theory, this would be a less compromised design. BUT, I'm a newbie and Pat isn't. He obviously had good reasons for the Ref1 design and Rocket and WerTicus report that it sounds great, so perhaps this means I have more learning to do  

Any thoughts?  

[WerTicus]

****Jules your going to have a great time at War...

I suggest you pop in on a thursday at about 6 ish... most thursday nights the guys are there till 11pm or so ... ummm latenight shopping!  Tell Pat that Nathan and Rod sent you

The neat thing about the replacement ribbons is that they are so light you cannot actually feel anything in your hand when you hold them, and the job of fixing them is something you could do yourself easily.

Also Jules the 10" Cabass has 'good bass', its good to about 30hz in this ref 1 design -3 at 25 or something like that.  So... well.. you might want a sub for movies?

****DSK... You need to make a trip to Perth some time  

Also i believe i made an error when i said it was the 2" ceramic, Its this driver:

http://www.thiel-partner.de/e/data/products/c_drivers/C79/e_C79-6.html

And here is a cross section of the ceramic ... now you know why they have grills on them... if you were to touch the driver you would poke a hole in it. (they never break though??!)

http://www.accuton.de/img/products/c_drivers/CM2_elec800.jpg

DSK you mention a smaller lighter faster woofer would be better!  

Cabasse is a very exotic piece of work... its easily lighter than anything you have seen before.  Its made of a honey comb mesh that is very very strong and lighter than carbon fiber, its easily lighter than a 5inch polypropolne woofer for example and mind blowingly fast.  Only problem is Cabasse have stopped manufacturing them and if you want one it will cost you $1500 each ... though they were once $700.

Cabasse also make a 21inch version that isnt much heavier or slower apparently for 4k. (all aust $)

dsk the xo is 300 and 3500.  25 to 45khz + - 2 db.


seriously dsk make a trip to perth... 700 buck flight return and a week here will do you some good

also pat has better speakers than the ref 1's now. but ... i cant afford those!