Thiel 22

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XMAN

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #20 on: 14 Aug 2016, 03:15 am »
I removed all drivers had a look at the X over the 1/4 w 68ohm resister is undersized  according to Thiiel if driven hard it can fry and the tweeter will see full range.  When I had the tweeter off I tapped it upside down on the magnet put it all together again and wow what difference it sounds fantastic.  I guess the driver was a little stuck.

nickd

Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #21 on: 14 Aug 2016, 05:21 pm »
Not sure if Thiel used "ferro fluid" in those tweeters. As I understand it, with age the fluid changes (thickens) and can even evaporate to change dampening of the voice coil.

There can be an improvement updating the tweeters in older stuff. I installed new Dynaudio D28 tweeters in my Thiel CS2's and it made a big difference.

XMAN

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #22 on: 15 Aug 2016, 04:53 am »
Not sure if Thiel used "ferro fluid" in those tweeters. As I understand it, with age the fluid changes (thickens) and can even evaporate to change dampening of the voice coil.

There can be an improvement updating the tweeters in older stuff. I installed new Dynaudio D28 tweeters in my Thiel CS2's and it made a big difference.

Not sure i can retro fit one the tweeter housing is square.

FullRangeMan

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #23 on: 15 Aug 2016, 10:55 am »
Not sure i can retro fit one the tweeter housing is square.
You can try using the square faceplate on a current tweeter.

gdayton

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #24 on: 15 Aug 2016, 11:47 am »
There's a lot you can do to ameliorate brightness on these without resorting to changing crossover components or drivers. CS2.2s are very responsive to changes in upstream gear and positioning in the room. First, don't toe the speakers in at all. Have them face straight forward. Always use them with grills on to prevent baffle edge diffraction.

A popular combination back then was a Conrad Johnson pre with a solid state amp of some variety. That could also chill them out a bit. Cardas wiring has been known to mellow them too.

You can't change drivers on these without also altering the crossover circuit. THIEL adjusted for a variety of impedance and amplitude response parameters of driver models within the crossover. Good quality components are also already used internally such as polystyrene bypass caps. Also, because different tweeters have different LF rolloff characteristics, you'll certainly change phase coherence by changing drivers.

Could you, in theory, improve performance by changing crossover components alone? Yeah, but in most cases I've witnessed, you need to be into some pretty high end electronics to make that the most economical way to improve sound quality.

The square face plate only mounts to that vifa motor, so unless you're sticking with Vifa, and presuming the tweeter mounting locations never changed, you're going to be stuck with a D26 tweeter which is a good thing. Jim Thiel designed that tweeter for the CS5 and it trickled down to the CS3.6 and CS2.2. It's a great tweeter.

TL;DR Unless you can solve the issue by different speaker positioning, you'll be much happier by either changing upstream gear to match the speakers or changing speakers to match the electronics and cables you have. Good luck!
« Last Edit: 15 Aug 2016, 01:25 pm by gdayton »

XMAN

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #25 on: 16 Aug 2016, 01:59 am »
There's a lot you can do to ameliorate brightness on these without resorting to changing crossover components or drivers. CS2.2s are very responsive to changes in upstream gear and positioning in the room. First, don't toe the speakers in at all. Have them face straight forward. Always use them with grills on to prevent baffle edge diffraction.

A popular combination back then was a Conrad Johnson pre with a solid state amp of some variety. That could also chill them out a bit. Cardas wiring has been known to mellow them too.

You can't change drivers on these without also altering the crossover circuit. THIEL adjusted for a variety of impedance and amplitude response parameters of driver models within the crossover. Good quality components are also already used internally such as polystyrene bypass caps. Also, because different tweeters have different LF rolloff characteristics, you'll certainly change phase coherence by changing drivers.

Could you, in theory, improve performance by changing crossover components alone? Yeah, but in most cases I've witnessed, you need to be into some pretty high end electronics to make that the most economical way to improve sound quality.

The square face plate only mounts to that vifa motor, so unless you're sticking with Vifa, and presuming the tweeter mounting locations never changed, you're going to be stuck with a D26 tweeter which is a good thing. Jim Thiel designed that tweeter for the CS5 and it trickled down to the CS3.6 and CS2.2. It's a great tweeter.

TL;DR Unless you can solve the issue by different speaker positioning, you'll be much happier by either changing upstream gear to match the speakers or changing speakers to match the electronics and cables you have. Good luck!

Is there somewhere i can buy a new replacement that will drop in?  i'm back to thinking that sending them to Thiel might be the best idea but 500 us is a chunk of change for sure.

dB Cooper

Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #26 on: 16 Aug 2016, 03:18 am »
I notice this is a three way system. So perhaps your problem this with the mid range, not the tweeter… or maybe the interaction between the mid range and the tweeter (not being very familiar with the speaker, I don't know what the crossover points, slopes, etc. are)… or maybe your tastes have just changed over time… I would be hesitant to sink 500 smackers into an almost 25-year-old system based on a promise as vague as "better sound"? (Really? That's what they told you?)  :scratch:

I don't know if your room is treated at all but if not, I would spend $500 there before I spent it on new tweeters (I agree with full range man, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.) or on boutique capacitors and/or wiring. If you do decide to upgrade the system, I would sure as hell trust the manufacturer more than any third-party as to the best approach to take.

OzarkTom

Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #27 on: 16 Aug 2016, 05:05 am »
I was a Thiel dealer when the CS-2.2's came out. Way to bright for my taste. The tamest  sound I ever got with them was using a Dyna 70, and still too bright. I think I sold a total of two pairs of them. I just could not recommend them to anyone.

gdayton

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #28 on: 16 Aug 2016, 11:35 am »
I notice this is a three way system. So perhaps your problem this with the mid range, not the tweeter… or maybe the interaction between the mid range and the tweeter (not being very familiar with the speaker, I don't know what the crossover points, slopes, etc. are)… or maybe your tastes have just changed over time… I would be hesitant to sink 500 smackers into an almost 25-year-old system based on a promise as vague as "better sound"? (Really? That's what they told you?)  :scratch:

I don't know if your room is treated at all but if not, I would spend $500 there before I spent it on new tweeters (I agree with full range man, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.) or on boutique capacitors and/or wiring. If you do decide to upgrade the system, I would sure as hell trust the manufacturer more than any third-party as to the best approach to take.

You may want to check to make sure the drivers are working properly. If you use a swept sine wave such as what you can generate with AudioTool on your smart phone or on a test disc, you can listen for buzzes on the midrange and tweeters. The crossover point between them is 3kHz. CS2.2s also had a 68 ohm series resistor with the tweeter that would sometimes burn up but only if the tweeter burned up as well, so if the tweeters have ever been serviced but the crossovers have not, you end up with way too much energy going to the tweeters. You can test to see if this resistor is in tact by removing and unsoldering the tweeter and measuring DCR between the positive binding post and positive output wire for the tweeter.

-Gary

Panelhead1

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #29 on: 16 Aug 2016, 05:36 pm »
I was a Thiel dealer when the CS-2.2's came out. Way to bright for my taste. The tamest  sound I ever got with them was using a Dyna 70, and still too bright. I think I sold a total of two pairs of them. I just could not recommend them to anyone.

  I listened to the CS-3.5 in Nashville at Nicholson's a long time ago. The sound was way better than the Celestion SL6's I had at home. In fact was great.
 Saw reviews of the 22 or whatever it was, name changed quickly and wanted a pair. Was back in Nashville and sure enough there was a pair on demo. The sound was terrible. The CS-5 were on demo also. Neither had the clarity and life the CS-3.5 had demonstrated. Blamed it on the dealer wanting the 5 to sound way better than the 2.2. Ended up with used CS-3.5.

FullRangeMan

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #30 on: 16 Aug 2016, 05:49 pm »
  I listened to the CS-3.5 in Nashville at Nicholson's a long time ago. The sound was way better than the Celestion SL6's I had at home. In fact was great.
 Saw reviews of the 22 or whatever it was, name changed quickly and wanted a pair. Was back in Nashville and sure enough there was a pair on demo. The sound was terrible. The CS-5 were on demo also. Neither had the clarity and life the CS-3.5 had demonstrated. Blamed it on the dealer wanting the 5 to sound way better than the 2.2. Ended up with used CS-3.5.
Propably was the coerent phase radiation from the coaxial mid & tweeter, not yet a full range driver but lots of power and SPL;

OzarkTom

Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #31 on: 16 Aug 2016, 05:53 pm »
I was also a Celestion dealer. The worst Celestions were the SL-6's with those metal dome tweeters. Talking about frying your ears. :o

borism

Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #32 on: 16 Aug 2016, 06:01 pm »
I started with a Thiel CS 1.2 and then moved up to a CS 2 2 years ago. My associated equipment included a tubed pre (BAT VK 3i) and solid state amp (Classe CA200). I have to say that I really liked the Thiel CS 2 2 in that system.
So, I agree with prior posts to make sure the speakers perform to spec and then to think about associated equipment if the highs need to be tamed.