[zybar]

I think there are 2 approaches Vandersteen is taking.  One is to provide audiophile level sound within a reasonable budget.  They accomplish this with the 2 CEs, 3As and Treos.  The second is to appeal to the sector which can afford to, and wants to, spend more.  That starts with the Quatros up through the Model 7s with VanderAmps and now the Sub Nines.  I think both markets can be served by them.

Understood.

Unfortunately for me, that puts me in the middle of no-man's land.

I am not moving up to the 7's and I think the 5A Carbon are too expensive for what they deliver over my current 5A's.

Oh well, guess it might be time to move on.

George

[ctsooner]

Are you the original owner of your speakers?  If so, you can do an upgrade.  What are you feeling you lack?  What's the budget?  I've had a couple of friends feel that they wanted to make an upgrade and didn't feel going for the a's to the CT's was worth it, but after listening to a ton of different speakers, they felt that they were best served by keeping their 5's and making other upgrades.  Before you change speakers, do audition a Niagara power device from AQ.  Where do you live?  That Niagara is a full component update and a game changer. Richard has the technology built directly into his new amps and it makes a huge difference in everything.  some of the guys on this board have heard it and feel the same as I do I 'm sure.

[dcbingaman]

Distributed subs provide much better bass than single or stereo subs, as featured in the Model 7's, 5CT's and Quatros, even with an 11-band EQ.  Putting 2 or 3 additional subs in an assymetric array around the room will obviate the need for EQ and overwhelm the dominant room modes below 250 Hz.  Research by Toole, Geddes, and Wente at Harman Kardon have conclusively proven this.

Vandersteen is a very smart engineer and he can read.  The 9 subs will allow a prospective Vandersteen owner to set up a distributed array which includes all "like" Vanderteen subs.  This makes perfect sense to me.  A pair on Vandersteen 7's with a pair of Vandersteen 9 subs, properly balanced and placed would be simply awesome to experience.

[poseidonsvoice]

Distributed subs provide much better bass than single or stereo subs, as featured in the Model 7's, 5CT's and Quatros, even with an 11-band EQ.  Putting 2 or 3 additional subs in an assymetric array around the room will obviate the need for EQ and overwhelm the dominant room modes below 250 Hz.  Research by Toole, Geddes, and Wente at Harman Kardon have conclusively proven this.

Vandersteen is a very smart engineer and he can read.  The 9 subs will allow a prospective Vandersteen owner to set up a distributed array which includes all "like" Vanderteen subs.  This makes perfect sense to me.  A pair on Vandersteen 7's with a pair of Vandersteen 9 subs, properly balanced and placed would be simply awesome to experience.

Bingo! What he said 

Best,
Anand.

[ctsooner]

I"m actually thinking about taking a trip out to Hanford one of these days to listen to Richard's set up.  I know that the 7's on their own are pretty special and to me the best sounding speakers I've heard to date. I have heard many of the 250+ esoteric speakers in top systems and not been impressed.  They are not coherent and the bass just doesn't fit in properly.  When huge subs are used, they don't fit. This is why Richard scrapped the 9's in the first place and the 9 subs are his way of using the R&D etc... to afford 7 users to get more sound and not kill the magic of the 7's.  He did the right thing I believe in staying true to himself. We all know that is the only way he'd do business.  Some of my favorite speakers are similar in approach to Richard's, however none for me are able to fully produce what he does.

These 9 subs aren't that expensive either when you take into consideration what they are and what has gone into them.  I wonder how many dealers will actually have a pair on display with the 7's or if they will be more of a special order speaker.  I can only imagine how they'd sound in a properly set up cinema room. 

[dcbingaman]

The Audio Beat has a brief article on them.  They are now available as a regular Vandersteen product.  (If you have 7's already, Vandersteen can match your finish.).

They are only available in PAIRS for $20k.  This confirms my suspicion - Richard has discovered the benefits of distributed subwoofers.  Placeing one on each sidewall, 2/3 rds of the way back would probably work pretty well, but I would experiment with setting them asymmetrically - maybe one in a back corner, and the other on the opposite sidewall halfway back.

The main speakers should be set out into the middle of the room to best project the midrange and high frequency.  The integrated subwoofers, combined with the dedicated subs at the room boundaries, should excite all the room modes pretty equally.

[poseidonsvoice]

The Audio Beat has a brief article on them.  They are now available as a regular Vandersteen product.  (If you have 7's already, Vandersteen can match your finish.).

They are only available in PAIRS for $20k.  This confirms my suspicion - Richard has discovered the benefits of distributed subwoofers.  Placeing one on each sidewall, 2/3 rds of the way back would probably work pretty well, but I would experiment with setting them asymmetrically - maybe one in a back corner, and the other on the opposite sidewall halfway back.

The main speakers should be set out into the middle of the room to best project the midrange and high frequency.  The integrated subwoofers, combined with the dedicated subs at the room boundaries, should excite all the room modes pretty equally.

Vandersteen just met Toole & Geddes...nice.

"Experiment with setting them up assymmetrically..."

I would take it one step further. Use a calibrated microphone, Room EQ Wizard and take MEASUREMENTS. I hope that Vandersteen does this for its owners at $20k price levels!

And ditch the 11 band EQ, most likely you will use it sparingly after adding subs. 2 additional subs is wonderful. 3 might be a sweet spot. 4 and more, is basically for crazy SPL and headroom, which is basically what you guys will have from what is mentioned above. Removing the subwoofer portion of your mains and moving them around would be the most ideal, but impossible of course. And that's getting complicated for fellas who might be just discovering multisubs. Basically, the more LF sources, the flatter the bass response with attendant improvements in soundstaging, slam, and even midrange & treble detail since your ear is not filling in for the anomalies in your bass response. No more "boom."

Do you really need to use a "Vandersteen" sub? No. There are other manufacturers of equal and superior subs at cheaper price points. Audiokinesis' SWARM, Funk Audio, Rythmik Audio etc...

Audiokinesis is the only one I know of that will try to come to your home and set them up for you which greatly alleviates the purchaser and lets him/her concentrate on the music!

Best,
Anand.

[dcbingaman]

I have a 5-subwoofer Swarm set-up that works wonderfully with my Vandersteen Quatro Woods and my Vandersteen surround speaker complement, (ITU 5.1 compliant).  Using Meridian's MRC room EQ and locations suggested by Duke for the subs, I went from 16 filters below 250 Hz using a single V2W sub, to 2 filters with the Swarm.  The 2 filters were for the VSM-1's which were interacting with the ceiling/wall boundary, not the sub array or the Quatros.  Geddes theory is right on, at least in my room !

[dminches]

I have no need for additional bass on my 2 channel set up with my model 7s.  My room is acoustically treated and the levels at each of the frequencies are nicely matched.

For multi-channel sound in cinema mode I don't send the LFE to my Model 7s so my other sub(s) handle that.

[dcbingaman]

Unfortunately, most people haven't experienced flat bass response in a typical size listening room, EVER. 

However there are three places where you can hear what flat non-resonant bass should sound like.  First, go to a good concert hall.  You may be surprised at how low, how visceral and how non-resonant a symphony orchestra can sound. 

Second, put on a GOOD set of earphones (Sennheiser, et al), and acoustic music - the midrange and high frequencies will sound funky, but the bass response is usually pretty good. 

Third take a test drive in a high end automobile (Mercedes, Audi, Range Rover, etc.) with the premium sound system, (i.e., Harman Kardon, Meridian, Burmeister), with multiple distributed speakers.  The bass will sound better and measure flatter than ANY two-channel home system can come even close to, even EQ'ed Vandersteen Sevens, much less some of the other mega-buck sonic abominations out there, (Magico and Wilson come to mind).

The reason is not really the speakers themselves, it's the damn room they are in.   You see, a typical listening room is almost exactly the WRONG size for reproduced music to sound well due to room nodes and anti-nodes that run right into the lower octave of all serious music program material.  The typical concert hall is too big to form standing waves at 40-100 Hz, and both your earphone chambers and the inside of an automobile are too small.  In the latter two environments, the woofers can pressurize the entire volume without forming standing waves and can be tamed with minimal EQ.

The only way to solve the problem is to defeat the room modes by overwhelming them with multiple subs which excite ALL the room nodes simultaneously on each bass note between 20 Hz and 150 Hz.  That is what the Swarm and the DEBRA systems do.   If you think you've heard flatter, more extended bass, lower distortion bass in a normal size room with any other systems, I can tell you, you haven't, and I have Meridian's MRC measured data to prove it.  As Robert E. Green stated in his Swarm review last year, (TAS), these systems are unprecedented and extraordinarily good at the hardest acoustic problem home speaker mfg.s have faced.

[poseidonsvoice]

Well said. We are not worried about sheer SPL bass output. We are worried about the huge variations in bass amplitude (+/- 10 to 15 dB) that most 2ch full range speakers have.  A properly calibrated multisub system can correct this. The SPL headroom is just a nice bonus. It's the cleanliness, the quickness and the detail of the bass we are after. And believe me, after that is done, you immediately hear improvements in soundstaging, midrange detail and treble detail amongst other things.

Best,
Anand.

[dminches]

I properly treated room does this too.  My room had a bad peak at 41Hz.  The combination of bass traps and absorbers completely eliminated it.

[dcbingaman]

Dmiches,  no argument - if you treat your room properly, you can eliminate most or all the peak nodes.  But, you know, it ain't easy and it takes a lot of experimentation.

My problem was excessive "suck out" (anti-nodes) right in the center of the room (where my favored recliner sits !).  I found the distributed sub array effective in fixing this problem, but Tube Traps didn't seem to effect the suck out at all.

That said, I love my Quatros and I have heard the 7's at Optimal Enchantment in Santa Monica a couple times.  Best speaker I've ever heard.  I'd call Richard up in a heartbeat to order a pair but I used my one "mulligan" with the little woman to buy a C7 Corvette.  If I bought a pair of your speakers she'd either kill me or throw all my stuff out on the front lawn.

I'm am envious of your set-up, though !

Cheers, Don Bingaman

[ctsooner]

this is an interesting conversation.  Richard learned a bit when he worked on the Vandersteen 9's that he never released.  I give him credit as he could have done what others do and just released them and sold out. He couldn't do that.  He took that technology and came out with sub's.  Someone said they can buy subs that are better for less. I personally doubt that you could for the 7's.  these are made specifically for these speakers. They are matched perfectly as speakers and amps.  There really is a lot to be said about matching.  I think that's a huge reason Richard's new amp sounds the best on his 7's.  Personally I haven't heard any of the mega amps (I'm heard so many on the 7's) sound as good.  I've got a good audio friend who has a different amp he likes better, but there are always exceptions.  In the end Vandersteen will push the boundaries and you will like it or not. It's all good and we all benefit.