[DVV]

Anybody crazy enough to wind your own?  Could you get the tolerances tight enough by DIY?  Curious...   I can see it now, instead of grandma knitting parties, we could have audiophile toriod winding parties!  

I have seen people do, but I was never that desperate.

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

... And while I'm ranting here, I want to thank (again) PsychicAnimal for his posts of a couple years ago that really was the catalyst that steered me to power conditioning.  I wouldn't be here today had I not. And THAT'S A FACT!  Regards, Robin

Yeah, and I got Francisco hooked. So, by extension, I hooked you too. Maybe I should be a hooker?

Seriously though, there are many problems involved with any power conditioner, much better known as power line filter. There are many contradicting requirements to be met, I believe more so then elsewhere in electronics. To cut a long story short, I spent a good deal of time designing a few filters. I said and stick by it that DeZorel's was the best I have heard - but that was four years ago, and besides, never saw a technical gadget that couldn't be improved. DeZorel had simply made the best musical and filtering set of compromises, but that's not to say it can't be done better yet.

Another thing that concerns me, always has, was the price. Somehow, really good power line filters always cost a chunky price. So I did some research, spent quite a bit of perfectly good money on models, junked most of them, but played more with others. I think I'm on the right track to a reasonably priced power line filter which will give the commercial units not a run, but a marathon sprint for their money (actually, your money).

The deal is this - I play around with it some more, then I send Francisco a sample for him to play around with it. Then we pool our findings, fix whatever needs fixing, and let you guys know what we came up with. The fun part with this is that this is the first time Francisco hears about it, so we may get a practical demo why he's chosen to call himself Psychicanimal.

How about it, Francisco? What use is knowledge that does no concrete work resulting in something good?

Ciao,
DVV

[Psychicanimal]

The Serbian hope has spoken--again!

OK, time to further Dejan's post.  In Lak's system, the Special Edition T4 and the DeZorel are sonically indistinguishable.  The T4's toroids are custom built and only 2 ampere rated.  The design was way too expensive to be profitaly marketed (makes the BPT look like a toy--I can send pictures).

In my opinion, the new generation of medical grade isolation transformers are killer.  They have an uncanny noise floor of ( -160 dB ) but are still too new to be easily found in the surplus market.  One of those wired in balanced configuration 220V/120V stepdown and transformer less secondary filtration is what I would have in an ideal situation (read, cost no object).  What I did for US $700 is simply phenomenal.  My compromises are not having balanced power and a need to drain vibrations away from the T4's in an exemplary manner.

I've heard of my friend's filter being Beta tested with two $35K Audio Research tube monoblocks with flying colors--so much for only needing good power supplies and no filtration.  The filter design uses capacitors and inductors.

I have no electrical knowledge but want to be an electrician and speciallize in noise control.  We'll see...

[sys1]

If you're interest in using an AC step down transformer and don't have Psychicanimal's time or knowledge, but have the $$$:

http://www.puritypower.com/powerbase01.html

[JoshK]

I'm a little confused about the 220...If it is single phase what is the point?  I thought it needed to be 220 dual phase in order to get the CMR benefit of a stepdown.  Can someone educate me please?

[Psychicanimal]

I'm a little confused about the 220...If it is single phase what is the point?  I thought it needed to be 220 dual phase in order to get the CMR benefit of a stepdown.  Can someone educate me please?

Three phase has three leads at 60 degrees out of phase.  It's used especially for powering heavy electrical motors, since it's easier to start and run them smoothly like that without a need for capacitors.  The big Reverse Osmosis pump motors I operated were 440V three phase.

House 220V has two 110V leads in the same phase.  Remember sine functions...

That's the ABC.

[nathanm]

If you're interest in using an AC step down transformer...
http://www.puritypower.com/powerbase01.html

Nice site, too bad you can't read it.

[JohnR]

Translation:

1. It's the ultimate in heavy equipment you have to have but don't actually need.
2. It costs almost $4000.

[Psychicanimal]

Translation:

1. It's the ultimate in heavy equipment you have to have but don't actually need.
2. It costs almost $4000.

That's why desalinized water is so expensive to make.  It takes two motors (100 Hp, 75 HP) running pump shafts @ 500-600 PSI making a maximum of 150 GPM product water.

Yes indeed, the ultimate heavy power regenerating equipment would be one of those mechanically decoupled regenerators...I saw one in eBay for something like $2600, from a hospital I think.  What a ride!!!

[DVV]

Whoa, people!

Whatsamatta wid-a you? You are in kilobucks!

Me, I was thinking of a project which should not cost more than say $200-300, minus the case. Plus, it has to be doable at home, or it's no good.

Look, for $2K, it's not hard being good, but you try that for $300. THAT'S the real deal.

Cheers,
DVV

[JoshK]

I'm a little confused about the 220...If it is single phase what is the point?  I thought it needed to be 220 dual phase in order to get the CMR benefit of a stepdown.  Can someone educate me please?

Three phase has three leads at 60 degrees out of phase.  It's used especially for powering heavy electrical motors, since it's easier to start and run them smoothly like that without a need for capacitors.  The big Reverse Osmosis pump motors I operated were 440V three phase.

House  ...

I understand the phase and sinusoidal relationships but you can get two 110V on the same phase on on different phases depending on how you wire in the breakers.   I was pretty sure the US two line was of opposite phase, i.e. one breaker on top of the other rather than side by side.

[Psychicanimal]

I would have to ask my father, who's an EE speciallized in power transmission.  That's his turf...

[JoshK]

To quote Frank Van Alstine...

European 220V is a single 220V line referenced to ground.  US 220V is two 110V lines summed referenced to a third ground wire.  

Now the question is whether those two 110 lines are of the same phase or opposite.  

By the way, there is a very interesting discussion about power going on in this thread that I'd like to see continue but really has nothing to do with the original topic so maybe we should split this thread.

[Psychicanimal]

To quote Frank Van Alstine...

European 220V is a single 220V line referenced to ground.  US 220V is two 110V lines summed referenced to a third ground wire.  

Now the question is whether those two 110 lines are of the same phase or opposite.  

By the way, there is a very interesting discussion about power going on in this thread that I'd like to see continue but really has nothing to do with the original topic so maybe we should split this thread.

Summed means in phase, then.

I sugessted this power discussion should be dealt with elsewhere but people keep coming!!!

[JoshK]

Summed means in phase, then.

Yes, I guess you right.  Actually now that you say it, it was quite obvious.  If you sum two 180º out of phase sine waves you get zero potential.  Duh!    

[Occam]

Summed means in phase, then.

Yes, I guess you right.  Actually now that you say it, it was quite obvious.  If you sum two 180º out of phase sine waves you get zero potential.  Duh!    

Its really quite amazing how two intellegent people could discuss something at length and reinforce a wrong conclusion.... I've done it m'self on numerous occasions.

You're not interested in the sum of the signals, you're interested in the DIFFERENCE!

220V in the States are 2 antiphase 110v lines. The 2 lines are 180degrees out of phase!

EDIT - an explanation for farmers-
http://www.faqfarm.com/Home/Electrical/42257

[JoshK]

aw....if it is the difference then yes they would have to be antiphase, as you put it.

OK, that makes a h*** of a lot more sense then.  I was really failing to see the benefit of trying to step down a 220 line if it was using same phase lines as its input.

[Psychicanimal]

Well, we didn't do as bad as those who made Vioxx!!!

[Dan Banquer]

The lines that come off the pole into the house are as follows: There is a high side and low side of the 220 volt transformer and there is a center tap of the transformer on the pole which is connected to earth ground.
Electricians will typically attempt to divide the current draw of the residence so that each side of the transformer takes approximately the same load.
At the box where the three lines are attached for the 110 V service to the house all of the neutral lines are connected the center tap of the transformer which is connected to earth ground. As Occam points out these two line are 180 degrees out of phase with each other.
 Hopefully this will make you think about adding an additional "dedicated" line to your stereo system because the line you add may well be out of phase with the line you already use for your line level equipment. Whether this will seriously effect the performance of your equipment is another question.
                d.b.

[JoshK]

Dan,

I you were referring to my statement about adding another dedicated line, I will say that I was well aware of the phase issue and planned my extra lines to be on the same phase.