[DaveC113]

By the way I never read your post specifically so I can't say that this was pointed at the "Neutral" cable argument. I agree with that. Warm cables are sometimes even worse than "hyper" cables depending on the situation. But what I was illustrating is who can prove what "Neutral" even really is? Only one cable I can think of that carries the name Cardas Neutral   

Does it mean it really will sound smooth in every system... Honestly no idea! I can say I had some Cardas Reference top of the line cables at one time. They were actually VERY forward, and a bit to analytical. But I have also had Cardas Golden Cross which were hot for a long time due to being "Warmer" and they were, but they were also sometimes mushy, and boring in many cases which brings us back to the point. What can be proven as neutral in every case? Fact is of the Reference, and Golden cross both were also substituted in the same exact system showing these results! Of course at the time the Neutrals did not exist yet I believe, but I never got that far anyway 

Yes, you can definitely determine neutral from comparisons, it is relative but it works.

An example would be my DD vs my D4 ic cables, the DD with Duelund wire has it's own "tone" due to the unique dielectric and this works great in some systems but not others. My D4 is designed to be as neutral as possible and it works in every system it's ever been tried in. There is a huge difference in the reactions I get between the two cables.

The truth is synergy only applies to colored components. Neutral components will work in any system they are put in, unless they disturb the current synergy by replacing a colored part with a neutral part.

[undertow]

Again I am not disagreeing, however man that's a lot of variables to say that a cable is dead neutral no matter what. I mean is there a certain "inductance vs. length vs. resistance vs. capacitance vs. metal" formula used to know who is truly carrying the neutral signal? If your running a lush 300 b tube amp vs. a Class D amp will it send the same neutral signal negating all other laws of audio? If you have a 100 db efficient speaker vs. a 86 db speaker is that cable still neutral in both systems?

Again I don't argue at all the fact cables can totally change the sound of a system, and some just will not work, but I have also heard the best cables one day of the week when I measured the AC coming in around 119 volts which is close to the 115 volts most power supplies are designed around, and then plugged this same system into a AC putting out 127 volts, and guess what Neutral was out the window! Weaker bass with such high voltage, much sharper sound, more noise etc...

I am just saying that all conditions out there will not allow for a one and only NEUTRAL cable period... Sorry. Some are better, some are worse, but no way we can pin this debate down overall.

[DaveC113]

Again I am not disagreeing, however man that's a lot of variables to say that a cable is dead neutral no matter what. I mean is there a certain "inductance vs. length vs. resistance vs. capacitance vs. metal" formula used to know who is truly carrying the neutral signal? If your running a lush 300 b tube amp vs. a Class D amp will it send the same neutral signal negating all other laws of audio? If you have a 100 db efficient speaker vs. a 86 db speaker is that cable still neutral in both systems?

Again I don't argue at all the fact cables can totally change the sound of a system, and some just will not work, but I have also heard the best cables one day of the week when I measured the AC coming in around 119 volts which is close to the 115 volts most power supplies are designed around, and then plugged this same system into a AC putting out 127 volts, and guess what Neutral was out the window! Weaker bass with such high voltage, much sharper sound, more noise etc...

I am just saying that all conditions out there will not allow for a one and only NEUTRAL cable period... Sorry. Some are better, some are worse, but no way we can pin this debate down overall.

I'd agree for speaker cables because the operating conditions are so variable, but for power and interconnect cables it's pretty easy to judge neutral.

Again, my D4 IC cables have worked well in EVERY system they've EVER been used in and the demo to sale rate is over 90%. This is simply because once people experience a neutral cable and what it does for their system, they want it.

[undertow]

Okay... Not to hijack this thread, but interestingly enough I am in the market for a good 12 to 15 foot pair of RCA terminated for a tube pre to a SS amp. Are these fully shielded? I have learned from some risks in the past "Bypassing" a shield especially in something longer like this is not always a great idea. Mainly I am asking because your website is blocked on my end right now from our proxy server.

If interested in the Pepsi challenge you can shot me a PM or email with your thoughts, and a price in mind.

Thanks

[DaveC113]

Okay... Not to hijack this thread, but interestingly enough I am in the market for a good 12 to 15 foot pair of RCA terminated for a tube pre to a SS amp. Are these fully shielded? I have learned from some risks in the past "Bypassing" a shield especially in something longer like this is not always a great idea. Mainly I am asking because your website is blocked on my end right now from our proxy server.

If interested in the Pepsi challenge you can shot me a PM or email with your thoughts, and a price in mind.

Thanks

Sure, so far in comparisons the D4s have lost out 2-3% of the time and often beat cables many times their price. I also have a new, improved D3 design that's 85% as good as the D4 for less than half the price. I'll PM you to arrange a demo.

[doggie]

 ...who can prove what "Neutral" even really is?

+1

I think that we are still on topic as we are discussing how one adjusts their system to their own tastes given the equipment on hand.

"Neutral" and it's brother "revealing" and it's sister "The Absolute Sound" are THE rabbit hole of our audiophile obsession.

So I agree with Dave that by definition a neutral cable does not change the sound of a system in which it is placed but how many people buy a cable hoping that it will not change their sound? I guess there is the audiophile illness that says "I love my system but I wonder if it could be better?" That often leads to purchasing equipment that reveals other defects that they then feel the need to "fix" by buying other equipment. That is of course endless and sometimes fun.

I guess that when I hear folks talk about a neutral cable I think "revealing". Revealing can be a mixed blessing. In a front end it can give you a clearer view of the details in the music if your downstream components can pass them through. It can also reveal more deficiencies in your equipment leading you to the rabbit hole.

So I find this all to be a moving target. It will always be how does the new device or cable sound to YOU in YOUR system. Does it make you happy? Who cares how it sounds in another system. As in cooking ...and in marriage ...you can combine two excellent ingredients but that does not ensure compatibility.

So give Dave's cables a try in your own system. They are of high quality and may or may not work with your other devices. I have owned them and moved on when I found some that worked better in my environment. Perhaps the new ones masked deficiencies in my equipment that Dave's revealed. Who knows? They made me happy.



PS. I still have my Omega Super 6 Alnicos. They are wonderful speakers but will definitely reveal whatever you do in the chain ahead of them.

PPS. To OP if you are still here.  I too am sensitive to too much treble energy. More specifically to upper mid-range glare. I have spent a lot of time finding a balance between detail, tone, and neutrality.

[DaveC113]

After you've done a lot of testing neutral becomes obvious, if that's really your goal. It's not everyone's goal, that's for sure, and that's ok... But it is MY goal and that's how I build my cables. If you like other than that there may be other cables more suitable but for neutral and resolving it'll be very difficult to beat my cables at any price.

I did NOT say a neutral cable will not change the sound of your system though, it probably will because it's not so likely the cable it's replacing is neutral. What you can expect though is far more resolution, clarity and dynamics along with correct, realistic timbre of instruments and vocals.

I would agree that more neutral cables, a clearer, better source, etc... all can unmask deficiencies in your system, but imo that is a good thing because by finding and eliminating deficiencies our system gets better and that's the entire point of upgrading, at least to me. I realize other people have other priorities and in that case there are probably better products than mine, but the one thing I'd say is that's really not the pursuit of high fidelity, it's the pursuit of whatever kind of sound floats your boat.

At a certain level a system is capable of reproducing the acoustics of the recording venue as well as fine detail of voices and acoustic instruments. If the room acoustics cooperate the soundstage will take on the dimensions and environment of the venue and not your listening room. The boundaries of your listening room will audibly disappear along with the position of your speakers, with a recording that has this information of course. To achieve this takes a very resolving system and very good interconnect cables, also clean AC power. Most people have never experienced a system capable of this but once you have you realize the value of a neutral and resolving system and the results are generally better than most people imagine a 2-channel system could ever be. At this point they generally ditch whatever ideas they have about how they wanted the system to sound and now are committed to the actual pursuit of high fidelity. You can get there with Omega speakers in a good acoustic environment but most electronics and cables will not perform at a high enough level to achieve this, which is why you need to spend a lot on your electronics and cables to realize the potential of Omega speakers. It's fine to set them up with less expensive gear and it's a great way to start, you just won't hear what the speakers are really capable of.

Finally, I'd highly recommend people find other ways of adjusting their system's sound than using cables as tone controls. They are bad tone controls and lose a lot of information that contributes to the ultimate believablility of your system and connection with the music, which is what we're after. For me, high quality tube amplification is the way to go, either preamp, amp or both, it is possible to find or build high quality tube gear that is very detailed and resolving and also has some amount of warmth, body and dimensionality.   

[undertow]

DaveC113,

Well I guess I do have a question then... Being that cables here are the great "Neutralizer" what exactly are these neutral components, and speakers you are using to verify this to us?

How do we hear this fully Neutral system and know we are hearing it fully "Neutral"? Or guarantee that this combination is neutral in order to get the benefits of these neutral cables in the first place? I mean we would have to argue to end up at this neutral position that every single capacitor, resistor, AC power supply etc... all play at "Neutral" to say that we are getting the correct neutral sound output correct?

And I will throw another factor in here.. Unless you have a fully measured, and certified acoustically near perfect room meaning bass, mids, treble is all playing at a set output DB, and the room anomalies are not effecting them how do we really measure neutral? I assume only an anechoic chamber could verify if the cables being changed in the system keep everything "Neutral" without any measured variations in frequency response across the board.

Not to mention I can't guarantee I don't have a SINGLE certified perfect neutral recording in the first place either as there is no standard, and every one of them changes levels, bass, higher treble etc...

I am not making an argument, but I guess it is an argument against a statement that because somebody believes it sounds "Neutral" with a single set of human ears, that it actually is.

[undertow]

After you've done a lot of testing neutral becomes obvious, if that's really your goal. It's not everyone's goal, that's for sure, and that's ok... But it is MY goal and that's how I build my cables. If you like other than that there may be other cables more suitable but for neutral and resolving it'll be very difficult to beat my cables at any price.

[undertow]

By the way I am sure you make a fine cable. That is not my argument and in the world of audio it may be what would mostly be considered “Neutral”… But I actually doubt that is the fact, the better word is more “Universal” which will allow it to take on the tone of the system more good, or bad that comes with it.

Now here is the deal though as there is no such thing as a fully universal, or musical guarantee on audio gear, or cables! Some combinations sure, but that’s why we have forums like this give people a starting point of what may work for them.

For me none of this matters because in the end the best explanation is “Musical”… If it ain’t musical it ain’t worth anything because you don’t want to listen to it. Don’t get me wrong measurements only go so far, and in fact many components, or speakers whatever can sound excellent, and not have the best standard measurements.

In the end point is trying to be a purist in the business is really just a path to utopia that does not exist. You have to tailor to what your current problem, components etc… are or you will never find a happy medium, and still spend a ton of money to do so.

Go for the lowest noise, hum, distortion whatever, and the most musical end results is the key, and getting there sometimes will take breaking the rules of “Tone controls” in order to do it unless you have unlimited time, and funds to keep playing games with every tube, every cable, and every front end on the planet! (unfortunately I have done much of that lessons learned)

[DaveC113]

Lol undertow, it's not so black and white... and I said before it's RELATIVE since you can't compare a cable to no cable, the system stops working without it's cables.

Room anomalies are an issue but much less of a problem than many make them out to be, our brains filter out a lot of things that technically could be problems, listen to Toole's latest video about it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM

You don't need a perfect room or system, which is great since it doesn't exist, but you do need it to be able to reach a certain level of performance described in my last post. Also, speakers with a narrower dispersion pattern provide more direct vs reflected sound and remove the dependency on the room to a large degree, I do this too. My own system is  Sony HAP-Z1ES source, a preamp based on Tortuga LDR and Aikido tube buffer:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=138965.0

Then my own EL34 amp that uses a 6SL7/6SN7 Aikido driver section with it's own power supply followed by EL34 in triode mode and James OPTs. All the best quality parts, etc, etc, etc....

For a speaker Omega is hard to beat for being revealing and resolving, but I also have the TAD/Pioneer S-1EX which have the TAD Evolution coax mid/tweeter driver found on the $30k TAD speakers. I'm also working on my own speaker which will be released at RMAF in October.

Look, I've been building cables for over 20 years now and I can guarantee you I know what neutral is with my own set of ears and the proof is in the pudding. Check out this review of my cables and SurgeX, the reviewer nailed it precisely. So do many of my customers who all describe my D4 as "the sound of nothing". I've heard that phrase or a variation of it so many times now! They know neutral when they hear it and so do I. Read my reviews and testamonials and you'll see an obvious pattern emerging, that most describe my cables in the same way.

http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-accessories/av-cables/zenwave-cables-and-surgex-zenwave-edition-review.html

But what it really takes to "get it" is hearing a system that performs as I described in my last post. Those who have know exactly what I'm saying.

[DaveC113]

In the end point is trying to be a purist in the business is really just a path to utopia that does not exist.

Well, it depends on what you want to call UTOPIA... if performance as I described is utopia to you then I can help you get there. If not that's ok too, there is no right or wrong way to go about setting up your system as long as it makes you happy. 

[undertow]

You don't need a perfect room or system, which is great since it doesn't exist, but you do need it to be able to reach a certain level of performance described in my last post. Also, speakers with a narrower dispersion pattern provide more direct vs reflected sound and remove the dependency on the room to a large degree, I do this too. My own system is  Sony HAP-Z1ES source, a preamp based on Tortuga LDR and Aikido tube buffer:

This was exactly my point... There is no such thing as a perfect room, component, or cable... BUT there is a such thing as a "Reference" point all things would then be measured from to show the change if any. So I was not exactly expecting a valid answer on this as some type of "Black or White" decision.

That was all I am illustrating, and look I realize marketing audio products are a whole other world, some hyperbole, and some science to get people to bite. I was again just saying I have probably had every combination of serious gear on the planet, and sometimes the less money spent the better off you are. In this case a lot of the time I see people wanting to spend thousands on a cable because it has 5 dollars of silver in it. Guess what 99% of the time they just believe they are getting something that cannot be achieved otherwise in which a lot of the time it easily can be done another way.

[DaveC113]

This was exactly my point... There is no such thing as a perfect room, component, or cable... BUT there is a such thing as a "Reference" point all things would then be measured from to show the change if any. So I was not exactly expecting a valid answer on this as some type of "Black or White" decision.

That was all I am illustrating, and look I realize marketing audio products are a whole other world, some hyperbole, and some science to get people to bite. I was again just saying I have probably had every combination of serious gear on the planet, and sometimes the less money spent the better off you are. In this case a lot of the time I see people wanting to spend thousands on a cable because it has 5 dollars of silver in it. Guess what 99% of the time they just believe they are getting something that cannot be achieved otherwise in which a lot of the time it easily can be done another way.

I don't do marketing like that. The great majority of my customers are extremely experienced and are often in the business. I've had distributors for other brands of cables buy my cables several times. I've had companies who sell cables buy mine as references. They know the value I offer because they are familiar with the parts I use. 

The unfortunate truth is most people haven't a clue and buy what's hyped, the lack of knowledge and understanding about what makes a good audio component is ultimately the problem when people can't get off the equipment roller coaster.

[undertow]

Sorry... I was not directing the marketing comment at ZenWave I should have clarified that I was just making a general statement.

[mrvco]

...

Have you played around with the toe-in of your speakers?  In the pic they appear to be nearly straight.  I'd suggest starting with extreme toe-in, pointing them straight at your center listening position and then walking them back out bit by bit.  I had some similar treble issues and getting the speakers set so they were working together did wonders for me.

[lousyreeds1]

Hi all,

I'm still here!  Regarding toe in, I've found that an almost straight ahead orientation is the best for taming the treble a bit.  I also have some of Dave's cables headed my way in the next few weeks, per your excellent suggestions that I ought to give cabling a second look.  Thanks as always for your help.