Exotica 3 not outputting enough bass

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Tone Depth

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Re: Exotica 3 not outputting enough bass
« Reply #20 on: 13 Apr 2016, 08:54 pm »
Did the sound change when you "upgraded" the capacitors in the Exotica 3s? Are you running a signal to the plate amps?

Does anyone notice their Exotica 3 not putting out enough bass from the active subwoofer section?

I have not changed any of the dial settings since receiving my Exotica 3s.  The disclaimer that comes with the Exotica 3s is that the settings are tuned in to optimum settings.  if you change it, you are on your own.  Yet, they do not put out the bass anywhere near what I am getting from my Soundscape 8s.   The Exotica 3s do put out sound from the subwoofer.

Note that I am using only the stereo inputs - I am not running a line in setting into the subwoofer section.  When I put in a line in setting from my ipad as a test, the bass still felt shallow, not hard hitting like the SS8 does with ease.

But the Exotica 3s do sound great though in its midrange and tweeters.

dbx

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Re: Exotica 3 not outputting enough bass
« Reply #21 on: 13 Apr 2016, 09:03 pm »
The signal did not change in the bass section when the caps were upgraded.  This part was not touched.  The speakers were bass shy since it was acquired in my possession.

The audio signal is acquired to the binding posts only - which puts out sound to the bass drivers.  I don't have a dedicated sub output going into the line in of the Exotica 3.

Marbles

Re: Exotica 3 not outputting enough bass
« Reply #22 on: 13 Apr 2016, 09:49 pm »
I just want to verify that you have power cables going to the amps on the speakers, and the amps are turned on.

dbx

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Re: Exotica 3 not outputting enough bass
« Reply #23 on: 13 Apr 2016, 09:54 pm »
Yes, the amp on the speaker does turn on and there is some activity.  I do get bass - but it is shallow.  On the speaker amp - if there is no power - or on standby - the LED turns red.  When there is power - the plate amp is on and the LED turns green.

Early B.

Re: Exotica 3 not outputting enough bass
« Reply #24 on: 13 Apr 2016, 10:21 pm »
Jim should not put a disclaimer in the back that scares folks from touching the gain setting on the amp.  With all kinds of amps/preams/processors/receivers out there with myriads of variable impedance matches even before considering room interaction, there is no freaking way Jim can dial in the woofers for his customers without going out on location  because he doesn't know how your amp drives the mids and highs. 

Yeah, I'd like hear more info as to why adjusting the phase and crossover is discouraged. 

ricardojoa

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Re: Exotica 3 not outputting enough bass
« Reply #25 on: 13 Apr 2016, 10:50 pm »
Jim should not put a disclaimer in the back that scares folks from touching the gain setting on the amp.  With all kinds of amps/preams/processors/receivers out there with myriads of variable impedance matches even before considering room interaction, there is no freaking way Jim can dial in the woofers for his customers without going out on location  because he doesn't know how your amp drives the mids and highs. 

You need to level match the sections after you receive the E3s. :duh: 

I don't have the E3s but I have an active system and I tweak the balance for different genres of music for god's sake -- different compression scheme between rock and classical recordings.  I encourage you to play with the knobs.  :lol:

My understanding of the E3 is that, it just connects like any other passive speaker. The level between the mid and woofer are already been matched at factory. So basically the power section are signaled from speakers wires internally. Unlike adding a subwoofer in your system where the signal comes from RCA. The design is not intended to account room interaction but the drivers.

ricardojoa

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Re: Exotica 3 not outputting enough bass
« Reply #26 on: 13 Apr 2016, 10:55 pm »
I think the problem related to lack of bass might be related to the Q value of the woofer section. A high Q with play lower but will lack the punch. Lower Q will give better punch. If you have simulation of woofer apps, You can see how large boxes vs small boxes curves.

 

kingdeezie

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Re: Exotica 3 not outputting enough bass
« Reply #27 on: 13 Apr 2016, 11:04 pm »
DBX,

First off, I think using the line input on the plate amps is discouraged greatly! I hope when you say that you ran the speakers off of a line out of your IPAD, that you don't mean into the plate amps. Using the speaker terminals, and the line input simultaneously, could have broken the amplifiers.

There seems to be something wrong with the setup however. Any way to test for phase? Maybe one amplifier is set out of phase? Are the drivers moving with music playing?

I will say, that the bass of the E3s is different sounding from any bass I have ever had in my room. Its super tight, but you tend to just hear the intended note, and not the reverberating driver overhang.

It certainly can change the perception of the amount of bass, but it tends to be more accurate to my ears.

Also, I wouldn't discount position. The SS8 and the E3 use two totally different mechanisms for outputting bass, with one using passive radiators, and the other being sealed, front firing, servo. I wouldn't expect them to sound best in similar spots, given how they may differently couple with the room.

How close are you to Jim? Perhaps shipping them back might be in order to make sure everything is working correctly.

 


kingdeezie

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Re: Exotica 3 not outputting enough bass
« Reply #28 on: 13 Apr 2016, 11:08 pm »
Are you running the plate amps into the belkin power conditioner?

If so, make sure the plate amps aren't plugged into any of the circuits that are current limiting. That could make a difference perhaps.

I had a belkin conditioner a long time ago, and I think only two of the outlets are built for high current.

Might be choking the amplifiers for juice.

Tomy2Tone

Re: Exotica 3 not outputting enough bass
« Reply #29 on: 14 Apr 2016, 12:35 am »
Are these the same E3's that were in for a review with Home Theater High Fidelity and the reviewer thought they lacked in bass too? Just throwing it out there n case there indeed might be something off...

Jonathon Janusz

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Re: Exotica 3 not outputting enough bass
« Reply #30 on: 14 Apr 2016, 12:44 am »
I don't know if these have ever been taken apart, but reading this it sounds a lot like the internal wiring might not be right.  There are schematics floating around here on AC showing how the servo circuit and driver circuit need to be wired.  It is almost like the servo circuit is shorted not letting the woofers move at all, or maybe the wiring to the servos and drivers got reversed.  I do remember that if the wiring is wrong, you get almost nothing for output; when the wiring is right, it hits fast and hard - it is an obvious night-and-day difference.

dbx

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Re: Exotica 3 not outputting enough bass
« Reply #31 on: 14 Apr 2016, 12:49 am »
DBX,

First off, I think using the line input on the plate amps is discouraged greatly! I hope when you say that you ran the speakers off of a line out of your IPAD, that you don't mean into the plate amps. Using the speaker terminals, and the line input simultaneously, could have broken the amplifiers.

I believe you are thinking of using the xlr and line input at the same time.  I dont ever recall in Jims documentation that using only the line input or xlr was discouraged.  I quick tested only one speaker with line input from the ipad, and the drivers reacted as they should (without any input into the speaker terminal).  There is no damage as there is still sound from the drivers.  No line input bing used at this time as i am listening to them as i write this.

There seems to be something wrong with the setup however. Any way to test for phase? Maybe one amplifier is set out of phase? Are the drivers moving with music playing?

I will say, that the bass of the E3s is different sounding from any bass I have ever had in my room. Its super tight, but you tend to just hear the intended note, and not the reverberating driver overhang.

It certainly can change the perception of the amount of bass, but it tends to be more accurate to my ears.
The E3 and the SS8 are in the same position when in use.  No bass impact is noticed when using the E3.

How close are you to Jim? Perhaps shipping them back might be in order to make sure everything is working correctly.

I will thoroughly exhaust all options before shipping back and forth - as it will be costly.

dbx

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Re: Exotica 3 not outputting enough bass
« Reply #32 on: 14 Apr 2016, 12:50 am »
I don't know if these have ever been taken apart, but reading this it sounds a lot like the internal wiring might not be right.  There are schematics floating around here on AC showing how the servo circuit and driver circuit need to be wired.  It is almost like the servo circuit is shorted not letting the woofers move at all, or maybe the wiring to the servos and drivers got reversed.  I do remember that if the wiring is wrong, you get almost nothing for output; when the wiring is right, it hits fast and hard - it is an obvious night-and-day difference.

I reviewed this with Jim.  the wiring is set up correctly.  I have a picture of the back of my speakers which i will upload shortly.

dbx

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Re: Exotica 3 not outputting enough bass
« Reply #33 on: 14 Apr 2016, 12:52 am »
I have not yet tampered with any of the dial settings.  Let me know your thoughts.

Sorry i cannot rotate this pic here on the circle.  The translation between my ipad to AC image upload does not translate as it should.




« Last Edit: 14 Apr 2016, 03:10 am by dbx »

dbx

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Re: Exotica 3 not outputting enough bass
« Reply #34 on: 14 Apr 2016, 12:57 am »
Can you try without the power filter tomorrow? You could try with the sub amps not plugged into it, and then without the power filter at all if you don't get what you're looking to get.

My guess is a resonances from the power filter is causing a problem with the sub amps.

I erred in one of my statements - the E3s are plugged into an isobar on a different circuit from my belkin - which is handling the rest of the stereo system.  I now have the speaker power plugged directly into the wall.  No difference.  I will be plugging them back into my isobar for protection.

I dont think the belkin is choking any of the equipment as i have used it for years - which it has never given any issue with any of my equipment.

dbx

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Re: Exotica 3 not outputting enough bass
« Reply #35 on: 14 Apr 2016, 01:00 am »
accidental duplicate post
« Last Edit: 14 Apr 2016, 03:11 am by dbx »

Folsom

Re: Exotica 3 not outputting enough bass
« Reply #36 on: 14 Apr 2016, 01:04 am »
I dont think the belkin is choking any of the equipment as i have used it for years - which it has never given any issue with any of my equipment.

That doesn't mean anything, not really. It's equipment dependent so it's case by case if it were causing a resonance.

So as long as the Belkin is on an entirely different circuit (not just AC receptacle) then the trial showed that it's not the Belkin.

As it stands now the only difference is the speakers. But, do you have a spare amplifier to try of any kind (for speakers which is also signal to sub amps, correct?)? Then we can make sure that it's not some sort of impedance problem or oscillation from the amplifier.

dbx

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Re: Exotica 3 not outputting enough bass
« Reply #37 on: 14 Apr 2016, 01:35 am »
That doesn't mean anything, not really. It's equipment dependent so it's case by case if it were causing a resonance.

So as long as the Belkin is on an entirely different circuit (not just AC receptacle) then the trial showed that it's not the Belkin.

They are on sepeate circuits.

As it stands now the only difference is the speakers. But, do you have a spare amplifier to try of any kind (for speakers which is also signal to sub amps, correct?)? Then we can make sure that it's not some sort of impedance problem or oscillation from the amplifier.

I have a duplicate power amp.

I have flipped a switch from low to high on the extra bass section.  I am hearing more deep bass since flipping the switch.  The bass is a bit more noticeable than before, but it is impactful.  I like what i am hearing.  I will see how it goes tonight. 

I plan to increase the gain as a next step.  I am curious to know what others have their gain settings?

Thanks all for your time.

jsalk

Re: Exotica 3 not outputting enough bass
« Reply #38 on: 14 Apr 2016, 02:39 am »
There seems to be a few issues that need addressing here.

In calibrating these, we start by measuring the natural roll off of the W8 which is being used as a midrange driver.  It normally starts rolling off around 110Hz.  We then set the phase so that the output is the highest in the crossover region indicating they are in phase.  Finally, we adjust the gain so the FR is flat in the crossover region.

The plate amps take their input directly from the signal going to the binding posts.  So it makes no difference what amp you use or the gain of the amp.  The servo circuitry will track the input signal.

Since the input of the plate amps are connected directly to your amplifier, you should NEVER connect a preamp to the preamp input at the same time an amp is connected to the binding posts.  You would end up with the output of the preamp connected directly to the output of the amp and this could cause problems.  That is one reason we put a cage over the amp controls and inputs. 

One thing we state in the documentation is that you are free to adjust the gain of the woofer section to your liking.  But we recommend not touching any other controls unless you have some measurement equipment in order to re-caibrate things.  This is hard or impossible to do accurately by ear.

Think about this:  The phase relationship between the midrange driver and the woofers will never change.  So there is no reason to change that setting.  Also, the W8 will roll off at the same frequency and this will not change either.  So there is no reason to the crossover frequency.  But you can certainly change the gain if you want more bass output.  That is a matter of taste and bass is very room dependent.

With passive radiators, the SS8's are directing bass frequencies different than the E3's.  So these two speaker models will load the room with deep bass in a completely different fashion.

Another thing to note is that if the woofers or plate amp are removed, it is imperative that the correct pair of wires are reconnected to the drivers and sensing coils.  If you get those mixed up, the system will still work but the performance will be severely compromised since you are using much smaller gauge wires to send the signal to the woofers. 

There is plenty of gain in the amps. You have a separate 300-watt amp driving each of the woofers   So you should be able to set the gain to provide the level of bass you are looking for.

I should also note that in the picture you posted, the gain looks far too low.  Mine are close to 12 o'clock.  Your's look like someone adjusted them to about 10 o'clock.  I'm sure this is way too low.

I hope this helps.

- Jim

jtwrace

Re: Exotica 3 not outputting enough bass
« Reply #39 on: 14 Apr 2016, 02:46 am »

One thing we state in the documentation is that you are free to adjust the gain of the woofer section to your liking.  But we recommend not touching any other controls unless you have some measurement equipment in order to re-caibrate things.  This is hard or impossible to do accurately by ear.

If the amp should fail you have to send the speaker(s) back to the factory for calibration?