[dB Cooper]

That makes you the manufacturers' worst nightmare,. They need you to become vaguely dissatisfied with what you've got every few years even if it works/sounds just fine. Same goes for every other component. I'm kind of in a similar place. I was getting the "itch"to replace my HD650's, my tastes having drifted in a different direction due (I think) to my increasing use of my Etymotics and SE535's. I'd been considering selling the HD650's but since Massdrop is killing the used market with the "HD6xx" drop which is down to $199. I'll just keep them if it means a next-to-nothing sale price, but I do have an interest in a more neutral around-ear at a non-flagship price.

[dB Cooper]

Fang has chosen to create a glitzy piece of jewelry that happens to make music. That's not to discredit any of the R&D and everything that went into them, and reportedly they do sound good, but inside sources say he priced it to literally be higher than the Utopia because he desperately wants to have the title of most expensive headphone on the market.

I guess he decided to exclude the ultimate 'blingphone', the Sennheiser Orpheus, from his radar.

Good points about the state of the industry. After Sennheiser proved that people would consider paying $1500 for a headphone, there has been a mad rush to discover just where the line is. Focal could probably sell the Utopia for the same price and still make money.

[dB Cooper]

In a surprising move Dr.Fang renamed the Edition 6 name to SUSVARA whatever it mean.

Maybe it's Chinese for COVFEFE?

[dB Cooper]

On a more serious (and on-topic) note, if I were spending that kind of coin on cans, I'd go Stax SR-009 long before Hifiman, primarily for the build-quality issues Armaegis mentioned.

[Russell Dawkins]

Funny thing - when the customers understand marketing better than the manufacturer, the manufacturer needs to consult with some new marketing people.

Ain't that the truth!

[dB Cooper]

A couple points...
1) I was commenting more on Fang's extremely poor reaction to the backlash and his engagement with the trolls.

Got a link? Sounds amusing.

[Armaegis]

Got a link? Sounds amusing.

The thread was heavily moderated/pruned after it went off the rails. Here are some screencaps, though some pruning had already started by then...

http://imgur.com/serEDX7
http://imgur.com/Aw18slq
http://imgur.com/PWsRJd6
http://imgur.com/gmWGIZ9
http://imgur.com/SFQ2rnv
 
The final page on the official thread ends with him comparing people's attitudes with that of the Chinese cultural revolution... which is basically the Chinese equivalent of comparing to Hitler/Nazis. It was shut down shortly after that.

[FullRangeMan]

At the HifiMan V2 upgrade program on see that the V2 drivers cost is very low.

[George Jackson]

Really, the headphone market is just playing catchup on the speaker world. How many people actually buy the 5-6 digit toys? With very few exceptions, those serve more as statement pieces to inflate the company ego/perception.

'
 Can't agree with you more. more and more people tend to listen to music on mobile devices

[FullRangeMan]

'
 Can't agree with you more. more and more people tend to listen to music on mobile devices

They use ear buds, hi-fi HPs arent mobile, the amp usually is a heavy tube amp.

[dB Cooper]

They use ear buds, hi-fi HPs arent mobile, the amp usually is a heavy tube amp.

Are you saying that ear buds can't be hi-fi? To be sure, most are not, but most fullsize headphones aren't great either, and the best IEM's can sound pretty damn good. When I listen to Tidal HiFi or lossless files on my phone through my Audioquest Dragonfly and Etymotics or SE535's, the sound is quite respectable. I'm also puzzled by the apparent assertion that headphone amps are "usually" heavy tube units; there are plenty of SS amps out there, both desktop and portable.

Far from being non-competitive, the headphone market is probably the single most competitive segment of the audio market. As usual, the really good things are a small portion of the overall market (even at 'high-end' price points), but there are literally hundreds of options out there, and a good selection even after one separates the wheat from the chaff. Granted, a lot of manufacturers (I'm looking at you, HiFiMan) seem a lot more interested in pushing the boundaries of what they can get people to pay than there are trying to bring hi end performance to more moderately priced products, but that's how high end works.

[charmerci]

How true.  If there were more attention on better sound, and more competition in the better headphones and amps, the prices could be much lower.

It's kind of hard to get to the end so they might not all be headphones but amazon shows over 50 thousand results for headphones! 


There should be something for everyone! 

[Russell Dawkins]

Are you saying that ear buds can't be hi-fi? To be sure, most are not, but most fullsize headphones aren't great either, and the best IEM's can sound pretty damn good. When I listen to Tidal HiFi or lossless files on my phone through my Audioquest Dragonfly and Etymotics or SE535's, the sound is quite respectable. I'm also puzzled by the apparent assertion that headphone amps are "usually" heavy tube units; there are plenty of SS amps out there, both desktop and portable.

Far from being non-competitive, the headphone market is probably the single most competitive segment of the audio market. As usual, the really good things are a small portion of the overall market (even at 'high-end' price points), but there are literally hundreds of options out there, and a good selection even after one separates the wheat from the chaff. Granted, a lot of manufacturers (I'm looking at you, HiFiMan) seem a lot more interested in pushing the boundaries of what they can get people to pay than there are trying to bring hi end performance to more moderately priced products, but that's how high end works.

I certainly agree with all of this. I consider my Etymotic ER4Ss to be an important and dependable reference. I first heard gross tonal aberations on my Beyer
1350s by cross checking with my ER4Ss at one of my choral recording sessions. The BeyerDynamics sounded great until I tried the Etymotics, then whoops!
I can hear significant details on these that escape even very good speakers. For one example, 20 years ago, spured on by rave reviews, I bought a copy of an orchestral recording made by Peter McGrath with the best quality microphones, cables and mic preamps. I was sufficiently impressed by the sound of the violins (easily the best reproduction I had ever heard) to pursue the dealership of the microphones (Schoeps) for western Canada. A while later, I listened to the recording again only to be disappointed in that the violins sounded not so special anymore. I was listening through a pair of Harbeth HLP3s, a respectable set of near field monitors. Then I remembered I had been listening through my Etymotics, but had not thought of them as particularly superior to my Harbeths, but I hadn't done a careful comparison. When listening to the recording again through the Etymotics, all the magic returned.

Apparently Dan D'Agostino used to use Etymotic ER4s IEMs to check on the sound of his new amplifier designs.

Also, all this is audible through ordinary headphone amps, too. The only good headphone amp I have is the Headroom Supreme, vintage 1996 or so, and I don't take that to recording sessions (but it was what I heard the Peter McGrath recording through).

Earbuds certainly can be considered hi-fi!

[dB Cooper]

95% of them are crap, but the same can be said for speakers, albums, movies, TV shows, restaurants etc etc etc. The really good ones will light you up though!

Never heard any of the ER4 series but I'd like to, especially the new version. My Shure SE535's beat my Etymotic hf's in some ways (more detailed, 'faster' sounding, more punchiness at the low end), but drift towards the 'warmer' side and don't have the scrupulous neutrality of the Etys. Even though there is a 3:1 price ratio difference, I listen to both, depending on the recording and/or my mood..

[Russell Dawkins]

Interestingly, the closest an over-the-ear 'phone has come to the ER4S, in my experience is the long-discontinued AKG K 240DF, the 600Ω version, not the current one, the K240 MkII (which doesn't deserve to use the same model designation).
They are demanding of an amp, being 600Ω, but can be fairly easily found still and are usually in good shape because the construction is really durable. My son bought a pair on my recommendation and had good results changing the ear pads and using the FiiO E12 Mont Blanc amplifier.

[dB Cooper]

Harman bought AKG; then Samsung bought Harman- and moved all production to China for low labor costs. I guess 'all' would include the 240. So it is disingenuous when Massdrop claims '67% off' on the K7xx (vs the K712 Anniv) while conveniently ignoring the fact that the 712 was made in Austria and the 7xx in China. May be a non sequitur but this thread is 'Headphone Market News'...

Russell, have you heard the updated ER4 (either version)?

[Russell Dawkins]

Harman bought AKG; then Samsung bought Harman- and moved all production to China for low labor costs. I guess 'all' would include the 240. So it is disingenuous when Massdrop claims '67% off' on the K7xx (vs the K712 Anniv) while conveniently ignoring the fact that the 712 was made in Austria and the 7xx in China. May be a non sequitur but this thread is 'Headphone Market News'...

Russell, have you heard the updated ER4 (either version)?

Apparently AKGs are made now by a factory in China who also market their own brand—"iSK", the HD-9999 model of which is well liked, if you can tolerate the cosmetics:   https://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-end-theory/1030466-isk-pro-audio-low-end-heaven.html
I bought a pair and can understand why they are popular, but I had to obscure the garish gold logo on the headband with black felt pen.

I have not heard the newer ER4SR and XR but I would guess I would like them a lot, based on what Etymotic says about them. I just couldn't justify buying them even at the reduced price for current owners when my current pair are working so well and have probably another ten years in them. I think I would go for the SR, based on two comments; one on the subtley reduced distortion in the SR and the other that the SR has a tad more bass than the original ER4S.
Etymotic themselves, if you read very carefully between the lines, seem to say that the SR is the more accurate and the XR is their attempt at trying to please the 'more bass' crowd. They are a serious, research based company, apparently engineer-driven and that gives me confidence in them.

Here's a thorough review:  https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/25-years-making-good-thing-better-etymotic-er4sr-and-er4xr

[Russell Dawkins]

I've gotta say, what is being said about the new Audeze iSine 20 (and 10) has me intrigued, too, given that the iSine10 sells for a mere $50 more.

For example:
https://www.head-fi.org/f/showcase/audeze-isine-20.22038/reviews

[dB Cooper]

Had a really interesting visitor in my store today. As he was getting his card out, I saw a Sennheiser business card in his wallet. Turned out to be Sennheiser's Director of Global Sales. Wish I could say I got some hot intel on Sennheiser's product plans- but I didn't. We did, however, discuss the HD800 versions, the 650, and my wish for Sennheiser to give Audeze and Hifiman some competition in the rationally priced planar space, i.e. to filter down some of the technology from the Orpheus blingphone. (I specifically said "If Audeze can put a nice sounding planar on the market for ~$700 (the EL-8), then I know Sennheiser can put something out in the $1K-2K range." I had the impression that Sennheiser was lukewarm on jumping wholeheartedly into the planar space; he kind of implied that the 800 series filled this niche, but on the other hand, he may have just been playing his cards close to his chest.

It was an interesting conversation for a headphone nerd to say the least.

[Armaegis]

Oh to have been a fly on that wall...