The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread

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AKLegal

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #700 on: 3 Jul 2019, 10:43 pm »
After tightening the screws on the midrange, I had to turn up the bass to rebalance the subjective sound.  Then I realized that was kind of half-assed, so out comes the measuring tools (a cool FFT program) and I spent some time over the last 2 days dialing in my midrange/bass integration.  I'm glad I did it because a few things became obvious that were not obvious before.

First, my right speaker is too damn close to the wall.  Created a suckout in the 150-300 hz range.  So I moved the speaker away from the wall. 

Next, the phase, crossover settings and EQ settings vary a fair bit between my left speaker and my right.  For my left speaker, phase is "13 clicks from 180 degrees", hehe.  And all EQ focused on a 60hz room mode bass hump (which dialed it down nicely).  For my right speaker, phase is set to zero and no EQ is needed.  Crazy. 

I have always used different settings for each of my speakers with h-frames (V1, Super Vs, NX-Ottica monitors).  My right speaker has a corner to its rear left and my left speaker has a door opening directly to its right.  Both are about 3.5 feet off the front wall.  I plan on breaking out Room EQ Wizard for the first time in 4 years once I get my Super 7s done.

I got both of them glued up and the first one has about 3 coats of spray-grade duratex (applied with a roller).  I'm going to spray paint the sides a greyish-aluminum color.  The white is just Zinsser B-I-N shellac base primer.




The goal is something like jeffreybehr's pair see here --> https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=99243.60.

I am able to get a duller, close up reflective finish with a bit of effort without fail each time I have practiced on a spare piece of mdf.

 

Early B.

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #701 on: 3 Jul 2019, 11:04 pm »
I got both of them glued up and the first one has about 3 coats of spray-grade duratex (applied with a roller).  I'm going to spray paint the sides a greyish-aluminum color.  The white is just Zinsser B-I-N shellac base primer.

Looks great so far! Hopefully, you'll be able to make a lot of progress during this extended weekend.

Tyson

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #702 on: 4 Jul 2019, 03:16 am »
I got both of them glued up and the first one has about 3 coats of spray-grade duratex (applied with a roller).  I'm going to spray paint the sides a greyish-aluminum color.  The white is just Zinsser B-I-N shellac base primer.


The goal is something like jeffreybehr's pair see here --> https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=99243.60.

I am able to get a duller, close up reflective finish with a bit of effort without fail each time I have practiced on a spare piece of mdf.

That's gonna look hot.

I am getting a chance to listen to my pair again, after all the changes & wow they are a lot more punchy sounding.  More clear, too. 

AKLegal

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #703 on: 4 Jul 2019, 07:10 pm »
Looks great so far! Hopefully, you'll be able to make a lot of progress during this extended weekend.

Ha ha, you know me better than that.

Ric Schultz

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #704 on: 4 Jul 2019, 08:02 pm »
Tyson,
Want to try something radical?  Remove the LCR network in front of the midrange.  Danny put in in there to compensate for some peak or dip because of the size of the panels/wings.......however, more parts usually mucks up the sound.  You could measure first and then listen......then remove the network (just detach the chain anywhere along the path) and listen again......then measure again....and let us know what you hear/measure.  A flatter frequency response is nice....but I will take more transparency and slightly off measurements any day over perfect measurements and less transparency.  I have never done this so it would be interesting for all of us.  Certainly would only take a few minutes to do.  I have been using a single Neo 10 and Neo 3 on an open baffle for years and it only needs a cap and coil on each driver to get super flat response.....no resistors, no network....very transparent.

Danny Richie

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #705 on: 4 Jul 2019, 11:02 pm »
Ha, ha, ha... Well, that LRC network is there for a reason. Without it an otherwise flat response will have a broad range peaked area that would make the vocal region pretty hot and forward.

The LCR network is all in shunt. So nothing passing through that part of the circuit actually passes through the drivers. So it isn't going to muck up the sound.

And yes, I have already measured them. I know what the LCR circuit does.

And those drivers need a little more than just a cap and a coil on them to work properly in this design.


Tyson,
Want to try something radical?  Remove the LCR network in front of the midrange.  Danny put in in there to compensate for some peak or dip because of the size of the panels/wings.......however, more parts usually mucks up the sound.  You could measure first and then listen......then remove the network (just detach the chain anywhere along the path) and listen again......then measure again....and let us know what you hear/measure.  A flatter frequency response is nice....but I will take more transparency and slightly off measurements any day over perfect measurements and less transparency.  I have never done this so it would be interesting for all of us.  Certainly would only take a few minutes to do.  I have been using a single Neo 10 and Neo 3 on an open baffle for years and it only needs a cap and coil on each driver to get super flat response.....no resistors, no network....very transparent.

nrenter

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #706 on: 5 Jul 2019, 12:59 pm »
Tyson,

Not to go too far off topic...but what software / hardware do you use for room measurement?

Ric Schultz

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #707 on: 5 Jul 2019, 11:20 pm »
Danny,
I am sure you measured the speaker and you are correct about the measurements.  What I would like is for someone else to listen for themselves without the network and report what they hear and measure.  All parts in series or in shunt affect the sound.  Even the resistor type in the shunt network will affect the sound.  I have never heard any part in a shunt network of any kind that was totally transparent.....except maybe very small values (couple hundred picofarad) of copper foil props from Amtrans.  I am not saying that Tyson or anyone else will like what he hears without the network.........but what if he likes it better?  It does not hurt to try and listen and learn.  I am mostly in the less is more camp as I know from over 40 years of listening tests that nothing is transparent and the less parts we can use.......usually results in better sound.  However, not always.  In this case?  Only those who try with open mind will know.  There can also be other ways to tailor the response other than adding a network....you already know this.  For instance, some people listen to computer audio with a player that has EQ built in.  If they use very little of it, it could be way mo betta than a bunch of distorting passive parts.....maybe.  Then there is felting and baffling and on and on.  Maybe adding a thick felt pad between the midranges would tame this.  There are many paths up the mountain.

Danny Richie

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #708 on: 5 Jul 2019, 11:56 pm »
Rick,

I am pretty sure none of my customers would have to ask themselves if maybe the speakers would sound better if they had a broad 4db lifted area in the mid-range.

And in an LCR network all that passes (path of least resistance) goes back to the amp. So throwing a lot of money at the latest and greatest parts in that part of the network is not likely to yield much difference. So those aren't a "bunch of distorting passive parts" either. Good quality parts were used even there.

And instead of speculating various curiosities maybe you should buy a pair and then learn some things first hand. 

Quote
Maybe adding a thick felt pad between the midranges would tame this.

That has nothing to do with why there is an area of gain in that range.

Tyson

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #709 on: 6 Jul 2019, 05:34 am »
Tyson,

Not to go too far off topic...but what software / hardware do you use for room measurement?

When I'm in "serious" mode, I have a calibrated Earthworks microphone, a professional mic stand, a mic preamp and HOLM Impulse loaded onto my server.  But honestly that stuff is WAY over the top and not needed for this type of mid/bass/phase integration.  I have the expensive stuff from back in the days I was running fully active speakers & needed very precise measurements to build out crossovers. 

Nowadays, for the mids/bass/phase integration I use the FFT portion of the Studio Six Digital app for my iPhone.  They correct for linearity and phase for the phone's mic and the FFT allows cumulative 4 second averages so you can move things around, measure & see the results in real time.  They also have a good RTA, but I like the readout on the FFT better for this stuff.

titaniumheads

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #710 on: 6 Jul 2019, 06:05 pm »
Does this look like a correct crossover layout for my super sevens?

Quote

Captainhemo

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #711 on: 6 Jul 2019, 06:48 pm »
Having trouble seeing/ following  how you've got the  LCR filter  configured.   
should be    cap/resistor/coil  (in any order)    in series   then one end of the  LCR filter to  +  midrange, other open  end  to   -

jay

edit.    Looks right, I  was mistaken , it  kind of looks like the  resistor of the LCR  is also connected  to the   +, I see it is not so yo u are  good


Danny Richie

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #712 on: 6 Jul 2019, 07:39 pm »
The layout looks fine and everything looks to be connected correctly.

However, that Sonicap in the Neo 10 circuit looks like it is connected to the inductor where there is still varnish on the wire. If you are going to connect it there be sure to clean off the varnish so that you have a clean Copper spot to solder the cap to.

titaniumheads

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #713 on: 6 Jul 2019, 08:09 pm »
 Thanks Danny, I did scrape it off and soldered it on

Danny Richie

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #714 on: 6 Jul 2019, 08:46 pm »
Thanks Danny, I did scrape it off and soldered it on

That'll work.

titaniumheads

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #715 on: 8 Jul 2019, 03:46 pm »
Finished up and in audio room now. I have a bass suckout in my audio room I need to figure out. 12.5' w x 19.5' long x 8' tall. I have bass traps in the corners, diffusers on front and back wall and combo diffusers,absorbers on the side walls. When I was testing them in my 3 car garage they had tremendous bass even with the garage door open they were vibrating my tools hanging on the opposite wall. Moved into the room the bass seems to really be subdued. I just have the speakers setting on the carpet with no spikes, maybe that is part of the problem.
 The mids and highs sound incredible compared to my VMPS/ RMX speakers. My girlfriend who has no knowledge of audio terminology said " Sounds like there is more air in the room if that makes sense"




Early B.

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #716 on: 8 Jul 2019, 04:45 pm »
Finished up and in audio room now. I have a bass suckout in my audio room I need to figure out. 12.5' w x 19.5' long x 8' tall. I have bass traps in the corners, diffusers on front and back wall and combo diffusers,absorbers on the side walls. When I was testing them in my 3 car garage they had tremendous bass even with the garage door open they were vibrating my tools hanging on the opposite wall. Moved into the room the bass seems to really be subdued. I just have the speakers setting on the carpet with no spikes, maybe that is part of the problem.
 The mids and highs sound incredible compared to my VMPS/ RMX speakers. My girlfriend who has no knowledge of audio terminology said " Sounds like there is more air in the room if that makes sense"


Awesome room!!!!!

I don't have Super 7's, but I do have dual servo subs and experienced similar issues you're describing in a room size virtually identical to yours. Double and triple check your wiring and settings. 

titaniumheads

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #717 on: 8 Jul 2019, 05:24 pm »
Thanks Early B. What did you end up for a solution? Hopefully not moving to a different room.

mlundy57

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #718 on: 8 Jul 2019, 05:31 pm »
Have you tried moving closer to the speakers to see if that makes a difference?

Also, have you run something like REW to see what's going on?

Are your bass traps effective to 40Hz or below and do you have them in the rear corners as well?

Another thought, have you tried less toe in? I find mine to have the best bass when pointed almost straight ahead, just a little bit of toe-in.

Mike





Early B.

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #719 on: 8 Jul 2019, 05:43 pm »
Thanks Early B. What did you end up for a solution? Hopefully not moving to a different room.

It was the wiring for me. User error.

It's highly unlikely that your room is the problem. If the drivers are working properly, what else can it be?