The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread

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Danny Richie

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #120 on: 4 Jun 2016, 01:45 am »
"The 99.9998% pure copper foil used in Jantzen Audio's Cross Coil Series inductors is the basis for the Wax Coil. Insulated with 60 micron special-quality paper, the foil is precision-wound tightly and then impregnated with Jantzen Audio's proprietary polymolecular paraffin wax"

Above is the ad copy for the Jantzen wax coil.  So, you are getting the exact same paper dielectric and the exact wax and exactly making them the same and they will sound as good or better?  Jantzen claim 4 9s on the regular coils but 5 9s on these wax ones.  You have scientific proof otherwise?

The Jantzen's sound fantastic and are available now.  How will your "new custom Erse" ones sound?  You won't know till you A/B with Jantzen.  Please buy some Jantzens to have as reference so when you make your custom ones you will really know something.  I want the best sound....not just something "made in America".  I personally hope your new fangled custom "super copper" ones will sound better than Jantzen.....hey, I always want something better.  Go Man Go.

I have a copy of an e-mail exchange involving a man that bares the last name of the company. He says they have never tested the quality of the Copper and have never had it tested. They just have to trust in their suppliers. He doesn't feel like the difference can really be detected by the human ear. And he basically said if his customers are happy then they really don't care what the purity really is of the Copper.

Independent tests showed that at least one particular run tested was no where near advertised levels. 

Yes, Erse did have test run on everyone else's coils.

I have listened to their wire wound coils and compared them to the Erse coils that were advertised as being the same. Clearly they did not sound the same. So they did not instill a lot of confidence in their product to me.

Ric Schultz

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #121 on: 4 Jun 2016, 03:41 am »
Nothing you just quoted or said has anything to do with how the Jantzen wax coils sound.  We are now 4 for 4 people testing and finding the Jantzen's to sound way, way, way better than the Erse's.  I trust my ears, I trust the ears of others.  I do not trust Erse's tests or comments (they want to sell their products....are they objective?....do they listen?.....hardly).  When will you listen to the Jantzen wax coils so you can see/hear what they really do?  Never?  You just keep going on and on about copper purity.  Open minds explore and experiment and are willing to be wrong.  Closed minds defend.  I want even better coils.  I hope you can bring us some....meanwhile my Jantzen wax coils bring me lots of enjoyment.

Danny Richie

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #122 on: 4 Jun 2016, 04:16 am »
Nothing you just quoted or said has anything to do with how the Jantzen wax coils sound.  We are now 4 for 4 people testing and finding the Jantzen's to sound way, way, way better than the Erse's.  I trust my ears, I trust the ears of others.  I do not trust Erse's tests or comments (they want to sell their products....are they objective?....do they listen?.....hardly).  When will you listen to the Jantzen wax coils so you can see/hear what they really do?  Never?  You just keep going on and on about copper purity.  Open minds explore and experiment and are willing to be wrong.  Closed minds defend.  I want even better coils.  I hope you can bring us some....meanwhile my Jantzen wax coils bring me lots of enjoyment.

I didn't say anything about how they sound. They may sound great.

I didn't care for the owners response.

Regardless of how good the wax dielectric is, and I am sure it is great, comparing like made coils confirmed the testing made by Erse. And that comparison, plus the owners response tends to make me believe that the only thing going for the wax film coils is the wax film. And anyone open minded enough to have a look at what they really are should realize that.

Enjoy what you have. I see room for possible improvement. But that's just me. I always shoot for making things better. It's what I do.

Ric Schultz

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #123 on: 4 Jun 2016, 07:08 am »
Actually, if you are open minded, you will realize that making anything is way more complex and subtle than you may realize.  Everything you do to something changes the sound.  The foil purity, the foil direction, the foil thickness, the wax, the paper, the heat applied, the tension of the winding machine, the curing, the bobbin in the center, the direction of winding, etc. all contribute to the final sound.  I tried the 12 gauge wax paper Jensen coils and they suck big time.  I hope your custom Erse ones are better than the Jantzens.......but there is really absolutely no way to know what the final result will be till you listen.......and if it is not as good as the Jantzen, then what was the thing/things that did not allow the best sound?.....you might have to try many, many versions to arrive at something worthwhile.   

Jupiter copper foil development:  "Every aspect of the capacitor construction was evaluated during the 4 year development process. Even the smallest details were addressed which resulted in significant improvements in sonic performance. Wax with very special sonic characteristics, better damping and thermal characteristics was chosen as a perfect match. Further, new lead termination technique has allowed the music to flow more naturally. Without exception, every detail has been tailored to this specific copper capacitor design."

Years ago my friend Phil wanted to have some custom polystyrene 1uf 100V caps made (for use in modifying Acoustat electrostats).  He was working for Sumiko at the time and Sumiko had access to really good tin foil.  So, Phil sent this foil off to 4 different cap manufacturers along with some Mogami wire to use as leads and his own favorite solder.  So all the various capacitor winding companies had to do was add their own polystyrene (some say all came from one factory in Germany) and wind them and solder the leads on using the same solder and wires.....well, guess what?......they all sounded different.

One thing is for certain:  Your custom Erse wax coils will not sound like the Jantzen wax coils.  Which one wlll be more transparent?  No one has any idea....no one.

Meanwhile, we can all get a fantastic upgrade by getting Jantzen Wax foil coils.....they are simply amazing.

cab

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #124 on: 4 Jun 2016, 01:27 pm »
Just because "everything" affects the "sound" doesn't mean "everything" is audible. And let's also keep in mind that what one person prefers is not what the next person may prefer. There is no "best", only different.

Tyson

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #125 on: 4 Jun 2016, 03:44 pm »
Just because "everything" affects the "sound" doesn't mean "everything" is audible. And let's also keep in mind that what one person prefers is not what the next person may prefer. There is no "best", only different.


Have to disagree.  Most of the times different is just a sideways move.  But sometimes things are just better.

Danny Richie

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #126 on: 4 Jun 2016, 04:34 pm »
If I think I see a way to make something sound better then I'll give it a shot. I've made a career out of it. No sense in settling now.

Tyson

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #127 on: 5 Jun 2016, 04:21 pm »
I'm with Danny on this one - if we can get a better sounding coil from Erse for whatever reason, then we all benefit.  In the meantime I'm glad I have the Jantzens in place.


Captainhemo

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #128 on: 5 Jun 2016, 05:41 pm »
I'm with Danny on this one - if we can get a better sounding coil from Erse for whatever reason, then we all benefit.  In the meantime I'm glad I have the Jantzens in place.

I agree too , but, it'd be  cool  for Danny to try the Jantzens  so he's got something  to compare the new ones to when they are  done. If  you guys all feel the  Jantzens are better than the  Erse Xo's, not much point comparing the new ones  to the  Xo's...

jay

mlundy57

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #129 on: 5 Jun 2016, 06:20 pm »
I agree too , but, it'd be  cool  for Danny to try the Jantzens  so he's got something  to compare the new ones to when they are  done. If  you guys all feel the  Jantzens are better than the  Erse Xo's, not much point comparing the new ones  to the  Xo's...

jay

As I read this thread, it appears the Jantzen wax foil inductors have only been compared to the Erse wire wound inductors. I would be interested in how the Jantzen's compare to other foil inductors.

When discussing inductors are wire wound and foil in two separate categories such that comparing them against each other is an apples and oranges comparison (i.e. all foil inductors sound better than any wire wound inductors)?  Or is there some crossover such that the best wire wound are better than the (worst/mid) foil?

Mike


Ric Schultz

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #130 on: 6 Jun 2016, 10:39 pm »
I just looked at the spec of the 8 gauge Jantzen wax coil and the thickness of the copper is much thicker....this is not good.  You want thin copper to get the best transparency and highs.  I would not bother with the 8 gauge whatsoever.....if you want lower gauge then stack two 12 gauge together that have twice the value on top of each other (two 2mh coils in parallel = 1 mh).  Two 12 gauges in parallel equal nine gauge. 

Just try the 12 gauge for your midranges and be amazed!  I am the only one on the Danny planet that has tried them.  14 gauge is so yesterday.....he he.

Miguel Gonzalez

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #131 on: 21 Jun 2016, 05:20 pm »
Dear All,

I just wanted if allowed to post a picture of the fantastic line arrays from GR Research with the servo drives

The combination of open baffle, line array, extreme short decay creates really an amazing combination it is really something...

I would like to thanks Danny and all the persons who are involved in this circle. With platforms such as Audiocircle it is possible to speed up the process of finding your way into audio (not only in the high end sector of it).

Thanks Miguel





Ric Schultz

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #132 on: 21 Jun 2016, 05:49 pm »
Miquel,
Way to go!!!!  Man that has to sound good.  Congrats....I know it has been a long journey. 

Now, here are the critical remarks......please duck if you only want praising.  Thanks for taking my advise and having all three woofers face forward.....and also physically aligning the voice coils......however, because you have an H-frame right next to and in front of the main baffle and right next to the tweeters.....well, that is a big no no.  You have highs bouncing off the outside walls of the H-frame and messing up imaging and coherency.  If you used a U-frame then most of the problem would disappear and you could put matching colored felt on the rest of that side of the U-frame.  I know you want this to look good....and it does....but a simple partial solution would be to put a half inch thick piece of felt all the way along the outside of the tweeters up to the level of the top of the H-frame.  This felt would kill the response of the highs to the outside and therefore they would not hit the H-frame baffle as much.  But this is a bandaid that will just give you so much.  You could also try moving the woofers back and using the phase control on the servo amps. 

None the less.....I am sure it sounds amazing.  But you know me....always trying to make it better.  I hope you get the Jantzen wax foil coils (12 gauge is a must for the midranges) for it.....now that will blow your mind (no exaggeration here).

Miguel Gonzalez

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #133 on: 21 Jun 2016, 06:07 pm »
Thanks very much,

Will move the servo drives back (takes 10 seconds) I am still in the early testing... , not ready to rebuild the structure of the servo drives into a U form...

I have to move forward with the sound panels...for the acoustics of the room


S Clark

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #134 on: 21 Jun 2016, 06:32 pm »
If those are the prototypes that I heard at Danny's last year, and they certainly look like it, you've never heard anything like them- and Mr. Gonzalez has an amazing set of speakers.  Not the Wilson's, not the TAD's, not the Magico's, -nothing that I've ever heard were that good. 
Could something make them better?  Yeah, sure.  But other than a few of the guys that had actually been in that living room, everyone else is just guessing. 

Danny Richie

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #135 on: 21 Jun 2016, 07:28 pm »
Miquel,
Way to go!!!!  Man that has to sound good.  Congrats....I know it has been a long journey. 

Now, here are the critical remarks......please duck if you only want praising.  Thanks for taking my advise and having all three woofers face forward.....and also physically aligning the voice coils......however, because you have an H-frame right next to and in front of the main baffle and right next to the tweeters.....well, that is a big no no.  You have highs bouncing off the outside walls of the H-frame and messing up imaging and coherency.  If you used a U-frame then most of the problem would disappear and you could put matching colored felt on the rest of that side of the U-frame.  I know you want this to look good....and it does....but a simple partial solution would be to put a half inch thick piece of felt all the way along the outside of the tweeters up to the level of the top of the H-frame.  This felt would kill the response of the highs to the outside and therefore they would not hit the H-frame baffle as much.  But this is a bandaid that will just give you so much.  You could also try moving the woofers back and using the phase control on the servo amps. 

None the less.....I am sure it sounds amazing.  But you know me....always trying to make it better.  I hope you get the Jantzen wax foil coils (12 gauge is a must for the midranges) for it.....now that will blow your mind (no exaggeration here).

Ric, I am not sure where you come up with some of the advice you throw out there.

If a U shaped cabinet were used for the woofers then the side panel would be just as long and create just as much reflective surface. Plus a U shaped baffle causes a lot of other issues that are large disadvantages verses the H frame. Resonance issue for one are a big one.

Secondly, no felt is need on the edges of the tweeter line. The upper ranges tend to beam and are not effected by the sides. The lower ranges cancel out at 90 degrees off axis. So his woofer tower is in a bit of an open window area where there is no reflection issue.

So you might want to take some off axis measurements of some of your open baffle speakers using the Neo 3 to learn a little more about what's going on there.

Danny Richie

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #136 on: 21 Jun 2016, 07:31 pm »
Miguel,

Your speakers are a one of a kind pinnacle of high end audio. You should give them their own thread complete with pictures. And we'll help you with tips on room placement and tweaks. 

Ric Schultz

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #137 on: 21 Jun 2016, 07:54 pm »
Danny, a U shaped frame would have less sticking out the front.....that is obvious.   This is, of course, aligning the voice coils.  It's the reflective surface in the front of the main speakers that is the main problem...less so to the rear.  I personally would not even have a U-frame (the less stuff near the main speaker the better).....you get plenty of low bass with the three 12s on an open baffle.  Heck, I had plenty of bass with two on an open baffle.  Depends on the room and how loud you listen and to what kind of music you listen to as to how much woof you need.  I bet if Miguel put his three woofs on an open baffle it would sound way, way better......not in pure low bass range or power.....but he does not listen to 110 db power rock.

Here is a link to a review of a speaker that uses 2 12 inch servo woofs (maybe yours?...they look similar) on an open baffle and this guy thinks the bass is incredible and deep: http://www.dagogo.com/the-beatnik-bops-on-over-to-novato

Another link where you can see the pic of part of the woof at the bottom of the page:
http://www.spatialaudio.us/lumina

You really need to try felting....It makes more difference than you could ever imagine.  You only know something when you listen.  Measurements only take you so far.  I have felted every speaker that I have ever made (the whole baffle right up to the drivers) and it ALWAYS makes an improvement.....even without other things in the way.

Danny Richie

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #138 on: 21 Jun 2016, 08:14 pm »
Danny, a U shaped frame would have less sticking out the front.....that is obvious.   This is, of course, aligning the voice coils.  It's the reflective surface in the front of the main speakers that is the main problem...less so to the rear.  I personally would not even have a U-frame (the less stuff near the main speaker the better).....you get plenty of low bass with the three 12s on an open baffle.  Heck, I had plenty of bass with two on an open baffle.  Depends on the room and how loud you listen and to what kind of music you listen to as to how much woof you need.  I bet if Miguel put his three woofs on an open baffle it would sound way, way better......not in pure low bass range or power.....but he does not listen to 110 db power rock.

You really need to try felting....It makes more difference than you could ever imagine.  You only know something when you listen.  Measurements only take you so far.  I have felted every speaker that I have ever made (the whole baffle right up to the drivers) and it ALWAYS makes an improvement.....even without other things in the way.

Ric, The woofers play up to a crossover point of only 160 to 180Hz. Those wavelengths are too long to have issues reflecting off of the edges of the H frame. Those are still in omni directional ranges. Even at its highest frequency range we are talking about wavelengths that are over six feet long.

And again, aligning the voice coils for wavelengths this long isn't going to give you anything plus or minus from one being inverted. I covered this more thoroughly in another thread a little while ago. Go back and re-read it.

I also sent Miguel many sheet of No Rez that I am sure will line these cabinets.

And please stop recommending for my customers to use a flat baffle verses an H frame. There is no advantage in doing so and it really limits the low frequency output and eats up amplifier head room.

And I have experimented with felting baffles and I try a variation of felt or foam on baffle areas with almost every speaker I work on to see and identify surface reflection issues. In this case there really is no baffle left for the customer to add felt to. It is nothing but a frame on the tweeter side. And if you read carefully my last response regarding this then you might understand why it would have no effect on this speaker.

Miguel Gonzalez

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #139 on: 21 Jun 2016, 10:14 pm »
Miguel,

Your speakers are a one of a kind pinnacle of high end audio. You should give them their own thread complete with pictures. And we'll help you with tips on room placement and tweaks. 

Thanks this is good news for sure I am willing to post pictures of the line force array speakers... I am willing to do it with pleasure because your creation really deserve nice pictures (not like the one I have posted at 90 degrees angle by the way...).

I am traveling for a month, once I come back we can do it properly.

One of the unsuspected surprises for me about those speakers (among many other things...) is that they are non fatiguing. I do not know if it is because of the excitement or what.

My idea is when I am back is to install the insulation panels being built here in Panama with the audio system (and for sure any help is welcome)...

Once done I need to compare seriously the following

1) Line Force Array with Servo drives with LIO from Vinnie Rossi

with

2) Line Force Array with Servo drives with the following preamp Aum Acoustics LDR Based
Passive Preamplifier with the following amplifier KR Kronzilla VA 680.

I have started the test but I am not able to come to a conclusion as of now (the LIO from Vinnie Rossi has really been also a serious surprise).

Once again thanks for pushing the envelope of what is possible in the field of reproduction of music (and also all the others participants in the forums)...I really hope you can develop in the near future a solution with line arrays, it is really something...

Thanks Miguel