The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 103166 times.

Danny Richie

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 12709
    • http://www.gr-research.com
Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #100 on: 5 May 2016, 06:01 pm »
I need to compare the Jantzen wax foil inductors with a standard foil inductor to hear if there is any difference there. If you guys also make that comparison I will be interested in your observations.

Tyson

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #101 on: 5 May 2016, 06:35 pm »
I have an Alpha Core foil inductor I tried previously in the midrange spot that I didn't like as much as the Erse.  So I stuck with the Erse.  Until I heard the Jantzen's.

Tyson

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #102 on: 5 May 2016, 06:52 pm »
The thing that strikes me, as I listen to Analog Productions SACD - The Best of the Doors, is how heavily blues-influenced the Doors are.  We always hear about their mystical poetic side.  But on the S7's you get that driving propulsiveness that just gets lost on a lot of other speakers.  Bass guitar is much more clear and varied, the keyboards are distinctly on the right and don't smear the other instruments, drums are thumping along just left of center with a lot of drive and precision, electric guitar is over on the left and again just clear as a bell.  It's so nice to hear all the musicians clearly and be able to appreciate how each one contributes to the overall song.

Oh, I should note that sometimes the guitar and keyboards switch places, from song to song.  That's cool.

bdp24

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 883
Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #103 on: 5 May 2016, 11:35 pm »
Yes indeed Tyson. Pianists and guitarists are often first and foremost Blues players, if not Jazz. Guitarist Robby Krieger came out of that generation of guitarists, both American and British, almost obsessed with Blues music. However, he had an unusual (for a Rock Band guitarist) amount of Jazz in his playing as well. Pianist Ray Manzarek not so much, being pretty much a Blues player. But live I thought they had a problem (I saw them twice, in '68): Manzarek was really limited because he had to play the bass parts on the album (by session great Jerry Scheff, Elvis Presley's 70's bassist) with his left hand; those bass parts were a big part of The Doors sound and style, and keyboard bass is no substitute for a real electric bass, especially when played by as great a bassist as Scheff! I've never read why they didn't just get a real bass player, like every other Rock band of the time. The odd thing to me is how dissimilar The Doors music basically was from Jim Morrison's lyrics. By the way, Jim was a very charismatic and engaging presence on stage. A lot of sex appeal!

Keithh

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 81
Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #104 on: 6 May 2016, 12:36 am »
Just put in Jantzen Wax foils in my Wedgies last Monday and the difference is quite dramatic. Totally agree with Tysons listening impressions. Don't know if burn-in applies to coils but it
is hard to believe they could much get better. Funny, didn't think the Wedgies could get much better with the stock Erse coils.
 I used 14 gauge for the LGK's and 16 gauge on the tweeter with inputs connected to the inner foil.
Might just have to see what the LGK 1.0 sounds like with a wax foil.

ebag4

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #105 on: 6 May 2016, 12:48 am »
Just put in Jantzen Wax foils in my Wedgies last Monday and the difference is quite dramatic. Totally agree with Tysons listening impressions. Don't know if burn-in applies to coils but it
is hard to believe they could much get better. Funny, didn't think the Wedgies could get much better with the stock Erse coils.
 I used 14 gauge for the LGK's and 16 gauge on the tweeter with inputs connected to the inner foil.
Might just have to see what the LGK 1.0 sounds like with a wax foil.
Thanks for the report Keith, Tyson, Rick.  I will be giving this a try.

Best,
Ed
« Last Edit: 6 May 2016, 03:57 am by ebag4 »

mikeeastman

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #106 on: 28 May 2016, 11:06 pm »
Just up graded the rest of my x-over, Alpha Core coils and replaced the caps in the notch filter with Sonicaps. I'll let them burn in and report back.




Tyson

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #107 on: 2 Jun 2016, 02:41 am »
Mike, that looks NIIICCCEEEEE!!!  I go back and forth on whether to get the Jupiters or stick with my Clarity Cap MRs.  Right now I have my preamp set up to sound pretty warm, so I think the ultra clear MRs are a really good match for my system at the moment.

OK, time for an UPDATE on the Jantzen Wax/Copper/Foil inductors.  I had to special order the sizes I needed from Jantzen.  I got 14ga all around and replaced all 3 inductors for each speaker.

HOLY SHIT!!!!!  I had no idea that stupid freaking inductors could make such a difference.  Wow, I am hearing details and musical flow and just a deep musical clarity I've never heard in my system.  These things are for real.  Seriously glad I swapped them in. 

Ric Schultz

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 739
    • http://www.tweakaudio.com
Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #108 on: 2 Jun 2016, 03:34 am »
You HAVE to use 12 gauge on the midrange....way, way, way better than 14 gauge.  I thought it would just give me a little more warmth and dynamics....no, everything, I mean everything was way better.  I know they are custom order, and not cheap (but not expensive) but your ears will be very happy.

Did you custom order the 14 gauge Jantzens through Parts Express?  How long did it take to get them?  How much did each value cost?  Total cost? 

Tyson

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #109 on: 2 Jun 2016, 06:32 pm »
I ordered from http://www.hificollective.co.uk but only because they were faster and more responsive than Parts Express.  No one has these sized coils so they are all special orders.  Took about a month to get them once the order was placed. 

You mention 12 gauge, but why stop there?  Why not go for 8 gauge?  Any reason you settled on 12?

HAL

  • Industry Contributor
  • Posts: 4351
Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #110 on: 2 Jun 2016, 06:47 pm »
You might ask the mfg to give you a Q factor for each coil.  It is the way to tell how the parasitic resistance and capacitance of the coil affects it's operation in a circuit.  Usually the higher Q units are preferred for high frequency operation, depending on where it is in the circuit.

Tyson

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #111 on: 2 Jun 2016, 06:53 pm »
HAL, yes - the reason I settled for 14ga was the DCR was the closest to the DCR of the 16ga Erse coils they were replacing.  So what happens if you go with something like the 8ga, which doesn't match up as well with the original coils?

HAL

  • Industry Contributor
  • Posts: 4351
Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #112 on: 2 Jun 2016, 06:57 pm »
It is a trade-off between lowering the DCR of the coil and increasing the inter-winding capacitance C.

The Q factor usually is high for low C and low DCR in the inductor.  It is something RF engineers use to chose coils for circuits.  Equally applicable in this case.

High Q generally means a better inductor.

Tyson

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #113 on: 2 Jun 2016, 08:50 pm »
I can't find Q or capacitance values for these coils anywhere.  Maybe someone on this thread knows what they are? 

My bigger concern would be getting too far away from the original coils DCR.  Doesn't that affect attenuation levels of the signal passing through it?  So if you make the midrange choke an 8ga, should you also make the tweeter choke an 8ga to ensure DCR goes up or down by the same amount?  Seems like it would just be easier to do what I did - choose all the chokes to be similar DCR to the original circuit so there's no issues.  But maybe DCR at these levels of difference only affect things minutely?  That's the real question - how much does a change to a lower gauge coil (and resultant lower DCR) actually affect things in the real world? 

S Clark

  • Volunteer
  • Posts: 5875
  • measurement? We don't need no stinkin measurement
Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #114 on: 2 Jun 2016, 09:08 pm »
My experience with crossover is that you are best off by simply matching the DCR of the original inductor.  Going to a larger gauge inductor is like dropping ohms on an in line resistor.  I've seen Danny tweek circuits by as little as .5 ohms to voice speakers.  Since no one knows his crossover as well as he does, I'd wait for his response or send him a PM.

Danny Richie

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 12709
    • http://www.gr-research.com
Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #115 on: 2 Jun 2016, 09:39 pm »
Let me clarify a couple of things.

First of all the inductor you guys are using on the Super 7 has a DCR of around .295 ohms in 16 gauge. A 14 gauge would be .188 ohms and a 12 gauge would be .12 ohms. This is going off of a Alpha Core inductance sheet. Brand to brand will differ a little but is pretty close.

My experience with slightly larger inductors on woofer circuits is that for each time you go up one gauge you pick up about 1/10th of a db in the ranges below 200Hz with a first order style curve to it. So not much difference at 200Hz but a slight lift as you move down in range. The total peak difference being about 1/10th of a db.

So moving up two gauges would lift you about 1/20th of a db.

But with the Neo 10's rolling off pretty heavy below that range you would not likely see any difference in frequency response.

Early B.

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #116 on: 3 Jun 2016, 03:06 am »
I just ordered a set of 12ga Alpha Cores for the midrange and 16ga Jantzens on the tweeters to try. I did it this way to eliminate the need for a custom order. Parts were purchased here in the USA.

Ric Schultz

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 739
    • http://www.tweakaudio.com
Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #117 on: 3 Jun 2016, 11:47 pm »
Parts Express has 14 gauge 1.2 mh Jantzen wax coils in stock.  You can unwind them for smaller values.  Inductance meters are <$40 if you don't have one.

http://www.parts-express.com/jantzen-audio-12mh-14-awg-copper-foil-wax-coil-crossover-coil--255-565

Danny Richie

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 12709
    • http://www.gr-research.com
Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #118 on: 3 Jun 2016, 11:56 pm »
Parts Express has 14 gauge 1.2 mh Jantzen wax coils in stock.  You can unwind them for smaller values.  Inductance meters are <$40 if you don't have one.

http://www.parts-express.com/jantzen-audio-12mh-14-awg-copper-foil-wax-coil-crossover-coil--255-565

Give me a couple of months and I might be able to get you the same wax film on a four 9's pure Copper foil made in the USA. All in the works right now.

Ric Schultz

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 739
    • http://www.tweakaudio.com
Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #119 on: 4 Jun 2016, 12:18 am »
"The 99.9998% pure copper foil used in Jantzen Audio's Cross Coil Series inductors is the basis for the Wax Coil. Insulated with 60 micron special-quality paper, the foil is precision-wound tightly and then impregnated with Jantzen Audio's proprietary polymolecular paraffin wax"

Above is the ad copy for the Jantzen wax coil.  So, you are getting the exact same paper dielectric and the exact wax and exactly making them the same and they will sound as good or better?  Jantzen claim 4 9s on the regular coils but 5 9s on these wax ones.  You have scientific proof otherwise?

The Jantzen's sound fantastic and are available now.  How will your "new custom Erse" ones sound?  You won't know till you A/B with Jantzen.  Please buy some Jantzens to have as reference so when you make your custom ones you will really know something.  I want the best sound....not just something "made in America".  I personally hope your new fangled custom "super copper" ones will sound better than Jantzen.....hey, I always want something better.  Go Man Go.