[trianglezerius]

Interesting perspective from a reviewers point of view.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3XlZ71yn_I

Let hear your comments guys.

[StevenZ]

The end of the review kinda points towards the kit speakers being the better deal and perhaps sounding better than both stock and modified B6.  If it were my money, and assuming I had the skills to cut the front baffles; my money would be on the kit.

[Oscillate]

Even handed review ...enjoyable and good points made.

Do you still have the First Watt F6?
And what's the doggie's name from the avatar?

[trianglezerius]

Who has a First Watt? I don't and the dogs name is casey.

Even handed review ...enjoyable and good points made.

Do you still have the First Watt F6?
And what's the doggie's name from the avatar?

[Danny Richie]

That review really surprised me. I had no idea he was going to go where he did with it. I sent him the X-LS Encore model several months ago so he could do a review of the Electra Cable tube connectors.

See that review here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLnBW3wuBSU

I think anyone owning the Elac B6 should consider the level 1 mod that I offered for them. For $76 the upgrade (that includes a sheet of No Rez) improves the speakers across the board.

But I sent Ron (at New Record Day) the full blown level 2 mod that upgrades everything. Sure, it takes things up several levels and shows off not only the true capabilities of the drivers, but my upgrade talent as well. It is a little pricier mod though at $290.

I didn't think about him comparing the modded Elac's to the X-LS Encore. He is right though. Even with the all the upgrades the X-LS Encore is still a higher level speaker and as a kit it is easy to get into it at an even lower price point. The X-LS Encore is still the benchmark for best bang for the buck in mini-monitors.

[trianglezerius]

But don't you compromise the sound and balance andrew achieved though?

[drewm]

But don't you compromise the sound and balance andrew achieved though?

Just so Danny doesn't have to type up his explanation of why he does what he does again:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=139868.msg1490555#msg1490555

And the upgrade thread where you can see the actual changes made and why:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=138550.0

[jtwrace]

But don't you compromise the sound and balance andrew achieved though?

Yes, of course. 

[trianglezerius]

I saw that and my point being is gear doesn't always to measure better to be musical look at tubes for example. They (tubes) measure worse then Transistors but to many sound so right.

Just so Danny doesn't have to type up his explanation of why he does what he does again:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=139868.msg1490555#msg1490555

And the upgrade thread where you can see the actual changes made and why:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=138550.0

[Danny Richie]

But don't you compromise the sound and balance andrew achieved though?

The short answer is "no".

In the $76 dollar upgrade nothing about the original design is changed except for one by-pass cap being added across the resistor on the tweeter circuit to lift up the rolled off top end. This corrects an amplitude problem (rolled off top end) and restores spacial cues in the top octave that effect the imaging and sound stage layering.

A capacitor in the tweeter circuit is upgraded to a Sonicap, but the value is not changed. And the resistor is upgraded from a sand caste resistor to a Mills resistor, but the value is not changed. Both of those improve clarity considerably, but they do not alter anything else.

And a sheet of No Rez damps out the resonances of the un-braced 1/2" thick cabinet material. So the bass is cleaner and more controlled, and the lower vocal region is cleaner from this as well.

So the level 1 mod makes improvements across the board without altering anything about the design.

The level 2 mod changes a few things that are what I'd call small issues, but improves all the crossover parts, wire,  and connectors as well.

[Danny Richie]

Yes, of course.

No Jason, Not compromised. Improved.

[Danny Richie]

I saw that and my point being is gear doesn't always to measure better to be musical look at tubes for example. They (tubes) measure worse then Transistors but to many sound so right.

Yes, but this is different.

An inexpensive poly cap verses a more expensive higher resolution and faster discharging Sonic isn't chosen because it is more musical. It is chosen for it's lower cost.

An inexpensive sand caste resistor isn't chosen because it is more musical than a higher quality Mills resistor. It is chosen for it's lower cost.

The box doesn't come with thick well braced walls because they don't sound as musical as thin 1/2" thick un-braced panels. Thin un-braced panels are used because they cost less.

This stuff isn't that subjective. This are real improvements. And these are improvements anyone can make and Andrew could have made as well. But these were built to a price point. Andrew did a really good job at offering a lot of performance for this price point. But any budget build will leave a lot of room for improvement. These just happen to be a really good platform for upgrades. 

[Folsom]

I'd choose the Elac if I couldn't do any woodwork. And I mean none, because even if you order Dayton cabs, you have to cut the baffle. But otherwise he's probably right, go Encore.

[trianglezerius]

So it improves the voicing and does stray away from it?

The short answer is "no".

In the $76 dollar upgrade nothing about the original design is changed except for one by-pass cap being added across the resistor on the tweeter circuit to lift up the rolled off top end. This corrects an amplitude problem (rolled off top end) and restores spacial cues in the top octave that effect the imaging and sound stage layering.

A capacitor in the tweeter circuit is upgraded to a Sonicap, but the value is not changed. And the resistor is upgraded from a sand caste resistor to a Mills resistor, but the value is not changed. Both of those improve clarity considerably, but they do not alter anything else.

And a sheet of No Rez damps out the resonances of the un-braced 1/2" thick cabinet material. So the bass is cleaner and more controlled, and the lower vocal region is cleaner from this as well.

So the level 1 mod makes improvements across the board without altering anything about the design.

The level 2 mod changes a few things that are what I'd call small issues, but improves all the crossover parts, wire,  and connectors as well.

[Danny Richie]

So it improves the voicing and does stray away from it?

The level 1 mod doesn't change anything about the original design. It retains Andrew's voicing and design. The only addition is the small cap that by-passes the tweeter resistor. It lefts up the rolled of highs a little. That's it. Nothing else changes about the design. It short it just offers improved clarity, imaging, and resonance control.

And it's a cheap upgrade. $76.

[bdp24]

I saw that and my point being is gear doesn't always to measure better to be musical look at tubes for example. They (tubes) measure worse then Transistors but to many sound so right.

Danny just responded to this with a great reply, and again addressed the issue of subjective/musical vs. objective/accurate. There has developed in high end audio this notion (originating in The Absolute Sound magazine in the 1970's) that better measured performance does not necessarily equate to better sound. The reason a solid state amp will measure better than a tube one, but the tube one will sound better, is not because test bench performance is unrelated to sound (as John Atkinson's amplifier tests in Stereophile routinely illustrate), but rather that, as Bill Johnson of Audio Research and others have stated, the wrong things are being measured. When it comes to measured technical performance, speaker testing has come a long way in the past few decades, and the ability to now measure a speaker in such a way that the results correspond well with the sound quality of the speaker dispels the notion that a correlation between measurements and sound quality does not exist. This audiophile dismissal of measured performance is outdated and wrong-headed, especially when one such as Danny is doing the measuring! He knows what to test for, uses the results of those tests to optimize his designs, and the excellence of the sound of those designs proves the validity of the technical measurements.

[mlundy57]

From the original thread and this one I get the feeling some folks think Danny is slighting Andrew by designing these upgrades. I don't get that from it at all. As a matter of fact, Danny doesn't just upgrade other people's designs, he upgrades his own as well. Case in point, the X-LS Encores. As Ron says in his review, the $169 stock X-LS Encore is a fantastic speaker and bang for the buck is unmatched.

However, Danny has 7 different upgrades I can think of that can be done to the X-LS Encores. You can add NoRez and Electra Tube Connectors. You can upgrade the capacitors and the resistors. You can take things up another notch by also upgrading the inductors and point to point wiring the crossover network. Want more? Add Sonicap Gen II by-pass caps.  Still not enough? Use Sonicap Platinum by-pass caps.

Are the upgrades going to cost more? Yep. How much depends on how much you want to do. Do the different versions sound different? Yes.   Are they worth it? For me, yes. Different people will have different points along the upgrade continuum that make the most sense for them.

The fact that upgrades are available in no way diminishes the stock kit. They simply take something that is already very good and make it better for those who wish to go there.

Mike

[GentleBender]

People shouldn't feel slighted about upgrade options. Think of it like a Saleen version.

 You spend the extra money on a souped-up version of a very affordable set of speakers.

[bdp24]

From the original thread and this one I get the feeling some folks think Danny is slighting Andrew by designing these upgrades. I don't get that from it at all. As a matter of fact, Danny doesn't just upgrade other people's designs, he upgrades his own as well. Case in point, the X-LS Encores. As Ron says in his review, the $169 stock X-LS Encore is a fantastic speaker and bang for the buck is unmatched.

However, Danny has 7 different upgrades I can think of that can be done to the X-LS Encores. You can add NoRez and Electra Tube Connectors. You can upgrade the capacitors and the resistors. You can take things up another notch by also upgrading the inductors and point to point wiring the crossover network. Want more? Add Sonicap Gen II by-pass caps.  Still not enough? Use Sonicap Platinum by-pass caps.

Are the upgrades going to cost more? Yep. How much depends on how much you want to do. Do the different versions sound different? Yes.   Are they worth it? For me, yes. Different people will have different points along the upgrade continuum that make the most sense for them.

The fact that upgrades are available in no way diminishes the stock kit. They simply take something that is already very good and make it better for those who wish to go there.

Mike

Excellent Mike!

[goskers]

Another option that I haven't seen mentioned would be to invest the same money that one would spend on the B5/B6 with GR upgrades on a design whose target was that amount to begin with.  Even with upgrades you still have a two way speaker with certain short comings.  ELAC just released their next line at CES which is targeted at price points roughly double that of the Debut series.  With the additional budget comes designs utilizing a concentric driver for midrange and highs with a dedicated woofer for the bass.  If I were looking to spend $500 on a pair of speakers I would think it be better value overall to have a proper 3 way over a tweaked out two way.

My .02 of course.