[klaus@odyssey]

OK, to re-start the discussion and questions about PS capacitors, the last question  was  if caps shouldn't have a life expectancy of 20 years or so in light of me recommending a cap change (essentially the oil change for your amps) after 7-10 years:

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And as for caps...yes, some caps easily live even more than 20 years without blowing up...depends on where they are and in what environment of the design and what quality parts / construction is used......however, just like a tube, performance will go down, no matter what...just the nature of electrolytics slowly drying out over time......as for me with the 15,000 uF power supply caps, I can hear a difference of newer caps vs. those 7, 8 or 10 years old  and in operation for that time....just saying that it's not a safety issue, but more a performance one...you want to keep good tires on your sports car when you have track days, right ???

[G Georgopoulos]

over-voltage ,polarity reversal,blow eletrolytics up

Klaus, over-age blows electrolytics?,how is that work?

[klaus@odyssey]

didn't say that necessarily, but they do lose performance over time.......and yes, if you strain them, there will be problems over time as well......

[G Georgopoulos]

didn't say that necessarily, but they do lose performance over time.......and yes, if you strain them, there will be problems over time as well......

Thanks Klaus

[G Georgopoulos]

here is a good one on caps ageing...

http://www.zen22142.zen.co.uk/Prac/repair_cap.htm

[marflao]

OK, to re-start the discussion and questions about PS capacitors, the last question  was  if caps shouldn't have a life expectancy of 20 years or so in light of me recommending a cap change (essentially the oil change for your amps) after 7-10 years:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



And as for caps...yes, some caps easily live even more than 20 years without blowing up...depends on where they are and in what environment of the design and what quality parts / construction is used......however, just like a tube, performance will go down, no matter what...just the nature of electrolytics slowly drying out over time......as for me with the 15,000 uF power supply caps, I can hear a difference of newer caps vs. those 7, 8 or 10 years old  and in operation for that time....just saying that it's not a safety issue, but more a performance one...you want to keep good tires on your sports car when you have track days, right ???

Let´s assume the original buyer intends to change the caps after 10yrs would this (the caps...the "material") been included in your warranty?
As far as I understood labor cost is only included within the first 2 yrs, right?

Assuming for overseas customers you would ship the caps and a kind of "guideline" how to change them and what needs to be considered doing this, or?

[klaus@odyssey]

Hey Markus,

No worries....our caps will easily survive 20 + years.....it is not an issue with reliability, but more that of pure performance, and as I said before, there is an audible difference of a cap that has been used for 7-10 years vs. a new one...as for caps themselves,  just like a tube, you can measure a cap to see if it is "good",  but you really don't know if it is 100 %, 80% or 60% for example...it just measures good...but like a tube, you have diminished performance.....this is particularly drastic with oil filled caps (which we don't have)......it might not give you the same performance, but still measure and looks "good".....that's where the listening comes in. ... electronically, there shouldn't be a sonic difference then, but, again, just as in tubes, one can hear the differences.

having said that, it is particularly apparent in humid conditions, such as in Florida for example, as environs also play a role in this, and the process accelerates in PS caps when you constantly turn it on and off.

And then there are the Symphonic Line SL reference caps...expensive ? yes, but man oh man, they are fantastic, and they hold up big times with much, much less performance degradation over the long run....you definitely get what you pay for with these puppies.............

Finally, offboard caps in the amps are easy to exchange if anybody int'l wants to do that........and for all of my customers who want to upgrade or tune-up exchange any caps,  we always offer them at close to cost anyway...

[srb]

Are they 105° C caps?

[Folsom]

Are they 105° C caps?

Caps are rated for cycles at a given C° value. That value typical exceeds temperatures any audio piece of equipment will ever be at, by a lot. It actually makes the value of this spec somewhat worthless to us. Clearly we exceed the cycles, but even that's confusing. As Klaus said you have to turn the equipment on and off [to get a full cycle].

I personally have never come across a piece of audio equipment with a blow capacitor, that didn't have the polarities crossed to pop it. But they have certainly improved performance when swapping them. (I've seen other things with blown caps, non-audio)

[srb]

Caps are rated for cycles at a given C° value. That value typical exceeds temperatures any audio piece of equipment will ever be at, by a lot. It actually makes the value of this spec somewhat worthless to us.

Electrolytic capacitors are rated for x,000 hours lifespan at the maximum temperature rating.  All major capacitor manufacturers subscribe to the rough rule that for each 10° C under the maximum temperature rating the life is approximately doubled.

Given two capacitors with the same number of hours rating, a 105° C capacitor will have approximately four times the lifespan of an 85° C capacitor, which also extends to the diminishing (deteriorating) performance curve as well as total failure.

At any rate, I am just simply asking Klaus what the temperature rating is for the electrolytic capacitors used in his amplifiers.

Steve

[Folsom]

I just meant to keep the convo going, is all.

I've seen cycle based ratings, too, but that's not real important. The ratings are what you can expect, but caps don't "die" or even change necessarily immediately at the rated use. They just aren't guaranteed for anything beyond it. And the ratings full voltage to cycles or hours are not typical conditions. My only real point is not to expect these ratings to be valuable for audio. You're better off choosing for values and sound that fit what you need, than reliability for conditions your situation doesn't reflect.

I suppose you could somewhat calculate a bare minimum for Klaus's caps.

[klaus@odyssey]

Correct for both of you...and yes, of course 105 degrees.....

[maty]

Hi, my pennies.

Electrolytics capacitors: half life

[TAULISA]

Focusing on cap issues as I did in the past I believe I must be graced with a lot of luck meaning that I still own a couple of Odyssey Stratos monoblocks I purchased way back in 2001 without any upgrades and just recently I passed them to my son without any problems and sound decay !
Same satisfactory situation with my Symphonic Line Kraft monoblocks which are close to 10 years by next Easter.

Bottom line I thoroughly agree with Sir Klaus Bunge's statements ....although no-one can expect, predict caps life span !

Personally speaking, after a certain period of years I would recommend replacing them all no sooner than one cap
blows in order to avoid a domino effect with other caps within the unit.

That's what I happened and eventually decided to do with my MSB DAC converter not so long ago and now it sounds as though I got a brand new one !

[aaron.luebke]

I know on one of my amps the caps are "tipped" with smaller value caps.  Is that still in practice with Odyssey amps?

I've done this on the Bottlehead kits I've built and tipped the PS caps with smaller film caps. 

[KLH007]

I know on one of my amps the caps are "tipped" with smaller value caps.  Is that still in practice with Odyssey amps?

I've done this on the Bottlehead kits I've built and tipped the PS caps with smaller film caps.

"tipped" = bypassed?

[Carl V]

"tipped" = bypassed?

Probably in "audiophile speak", but that term
in an electrical engineering 'speak is different.

Subtle nuance & bias can never be truly eliminated.

[aaron.luebke]

I think we're close...   Added to existing cap in parallel.  Putting a small value film cap in that "position" is supposed to have benefit.  Whether it really does or not I'm sure is specific to the product and the ears listening to that which comes through the product.

[klaus@odyssey]

Done it several times...and mostly with good results, if a 0.1 uF...

however,  less so with the SL caps...that's where the quality of the caps itself comes in

[dflee]

My car has a 100,000 mile warranty. Does that mean I expect it to perform the same way
entirely from mile one to 100,000. I would be a fool if I treated or expected her to hang like
that. I hope to get my amp recapped and updated some day (or get an Odyssey).