Recommend a tube pre-amp

JLM · « **Reply #40 on:** 3 Dec 2015, 11:40 am »

Rusty,

Thanks for the advice. Have heard lots of good regarding the iFi gear, but wanted a remote. The Emotiva DC-1 gave me that plus it cost less than 2 or 3 pieces of iFi. It really seems to be a completely competent piece without dropping $$$ on DSD (and it is a move up from what I had), just get the feeling that my speakers/amp still have unfulfilled potential. I sold a Prima Luna Dialogue Premium tube integrated earlier this year that didn't bring much palpability, so my budget for DAC + pre-amp is the proceeds from that sale. Supposed to receive a slightly used Chord Qute EX today, which leaves me roughly $1500 for a pre-amp (earlier I'd stated a $1,000 budget because you guys are really eager to spend other folks money

).

G,

I'm always trying to get to the end point without taking the intermediate steps, mostly to avoid cost and hassles. Being cheap and trying to be a minimalist, I'd hoped to be happy with the DC-1. As I research it has become apparent that palpability comes with a price (and separates). Part of that price is a tubed gain stage using 6SNxx (or 12SNxx) tubes.

2gumby2 · « **Reply #41 on:** 3 Dec 2015, 12:19 pm »

The Audio Mirror T-61 is a little above your budget, but may be worthy of consideration. Here's the link:
http://www.audiomirror.com/preamps.html

jsm71 · « **Reply #42 on:** 3 Dec 2015, 01:17 pm »

"As I research it has become apparent that palpability comes with a price (and separates). Part of that price is a tubed gain stage using 6SNxx (or 12SNxx) tubes"

I can't agree more that 6SN7 class tubes are wonderful for preamps. There is something about them that really makes my digital inputs listenable. Also there is a wide range of availability to upgrade the tubes for better sound as time and budget permits. Getting this design in a preamp with a remote puts your budget at extreme risk. Sorry, but that combination does cost.

There is a Cary SLP-98L on audiogon that meets your design goals, if not your budget. You might want to research that unit and watch for a good price. The one for sale had some upgrade mods, but everything is negotiable, right?

. I use a Cary SLP-98P (with phono stage) and have put in wonderful NOS tubes in place over time. I love the design and hand wired approach and cannot live without the remote, so I understand that requirement. The other features I love are separate L and R gain controls in addition to master volume, and two sets of output jacks. At one point I was using the second set for a subwoofer. I don't use one now with my current speakers. One negative? You would need to use the unbalanced outputs from your DC-1 into the Cary.

Scott

JLM · « **Reply #43 on:** 5 Dec 2015, 10:56 am »

Currently blowing my budget by considering Don Sach's SP14 as a 6SN7 based solution. Comes with upgraded caps, tube rectification, separate power taps for each channel.

But stepping into the dark side...

Also thinking about a Tortuga LDR3.V2 passive that uses light dependent resistor technology (stays within budget, but is also highly regarded, and unlike tubes the analog lights are auto calibrated to not drift with time).

mresseguie · « **Reply #44 on:** 5 Dec 2015, 02:43 pm »

Ooh, JLM.

Either way you go, I'd really like to hear your impressions once the chosen item is thoroughly burned in.

Heck, I'll take unburned in impressions as well.

TomS · « **Reply #45 on:** 5 Dec 2015, 03:00 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 5 Dec 2015, 10:56 am

Currently blowing my budget by considering Don Sach's SP14 as a 6SN7 based solution. Comes with upgraded caps, tube rectification, separate power taps for each channel.

But stepping into the dark side...

Also thinking about a Tortuga LDR3.V2 passive that uses light dependent resistor technology (stays within budget, but is also highly regarded, and unlike tubes the analog lights are auto calibrated to not drift with time).

The Tortuga is amazing and competitive at any price, but for the coin it's a crazy steal. It is totally transparent, zero harshness, but it isn't going to sprinkle your system with any toobiness, particularly like 6SN7's will. Also, there are many flavors of 6SN7 and the good ones can become very pricey. If he can do it as 12SN7's instead of the 6.3v version, they're not in as much demand.

rajacat · « **Reply #46 on:** 5 Dec 2015, 04:42 pm »

How about using the Tortuga with a 6SN7 buffer? DaveC113 of ZenWave Audio has built one with a Broski tube buffer. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=138965.0

DaveC113 · « **Reply #47 on:** 5 Dec 2015, 05:03 pm »

Quote from: TomS on 5 Dec 2015, 03:00 pm

The Tortuga is amazing and competitive at any price, but for the coin it's a crazy steal. It is totally transparent, zero harshness, but it isn't going to sprinkle your system with any toobiness, particularly like 6SN7's will. Also, there are many flavors of 6SN7 and the good ones can become very pricey. If he can do it as 12SN7's instead of the 6.3v version, they're not in as much demand.

6SN7s are one of the most linear tubes, if not the most linear. Like most things, it's the implementation/circuit design and not the tubes fault. In a well-designed circuit like the Aikido 6SN7s are very neutral... very little distortion, high PSRR, and ruler flat frequency response. The issue with tubes seems to be circuits are often used that are too simple... a resistor loaded single triode output/driver stage does sound "tooby"... slow and round. Better circuits often do not, like the Aikido, White cf, and mu-follower circuits. Simple often IS better, but not always...

Also, all 6SN7s are good tubes imo, you don't have to spend a lot on the premium versions, many times you'll just hear a difference and not a clear improvement but again, circuit design can minimize or emphasize these differences.

rajacat, I can easily recommend this combination, but someone has to build it and just the parts will probably exceed budget. It was not a cheap project...

TomS · « **Reply #48 on:** 5 Dec 2015, 06:13 pm »

Quote from: DaveC113 on 5 Dec 2015, 05:03 pm

6SN7s are one of the most linear tubes, if not the most linear. Like most things, it's the implementation/circuit design and not the tubes fault. In a well-designed circuit like the Aikido 6SN7s are very neutral... very little distortion, high PSRR, and ruler flat frequency response. The issue with tubes seems to be circuits are often used that are too simple... a resistor loaded single triode output/driver stage does sound "tooby"... slow and round. Better circuits often do not, like the Aikido, White cf, and mu-follower circuits. Simple often IS better, but not always...

Also, all 6SN7s are good tubes imo, you don't have to spend a lot on the premium versions, many times you'll just hear a difference and not a clear improvement but again, circuit design can minimize or emphasize these differences.

rajacat, I can easily recommend this combination, but someone has to build it and just the parts will probably exceed budget. It was not a cheap project...

Wasn't intending to debate it, just a warning for someone who's looking at $1-2k. I've had at least half a dozen 6SN7 based preamps and amp drivers, and find YMMV. Included were 2 very well built Aikido implementations, Atma-Sphere, and a TRL Dude, which itself is among the very best, and yes, rolling made a difference in that one too. For my nickel, I'd still try the Tortuga and probably be done, but this IS the tube circle

Jonathon Janusz · « **Reply #49 on:** 5 Dec 2015, 07:05 pm »

I got a chance to hear the decware pre and one of the integrated (both with and without the pre in place), and also the pre connected to the odyssey khartago amp I was buying that day from another local AC'er connected to his tektons (if I remember right; I don't think they were Zu's, but I might be wrong here). At the time, he was actually downsizing the system to just the integrated, as for him there was little enough difference between the pre and integrated run as a power amp together to justify the additional tube expense.

The decware gear sounded good, for sure, but with your speakers I'm not sure it would get you where you want to go by itself. I would call it more smooth and relaxed than authoritative. With the khartago, I thought it might have just been a little too much of a good thing, very dense but a little too dark for my tastes. As I'm typing, I am thinking that maybe with your amps in particular the decware would make a better match, filling in the presentation from your amps so to speak. . . I just don't have enough experience with your speakers to have a clear cut idea of where the overall balance would land. I'm not sure I'd buy sight unseen in this case, but if you could borrow one from someone local, I think it would be worth a look.

My other thought reading your thread and what you're looking for out of the pre was to call Klaus at Odyssey and see if he might have a candela in off a trade that would get you to your $1K budget. Alex may be far more soft spoken that Klaus, but he is very approachable and easy to talk to, and was very patient talking tubes with a completely uninitiated observer like myself. Having designed the candela, he would also be in a great position to give advice on both tube choices and internal parts - capacitors and such - to make the best match of his preamp with what you're looking for. Last, stock configuration on the candela includes three in, two out, and remote (volume) so all the other boxes look checked?

Steve · « **Reply #50 on:** 6 Dec 2015, 04:34 am »

Quote from: DaveC113 on 5 Dec 2015, 05:03 pm

6SN7s are one of the most linear tubes, if not the most linear.

Just a little data for the public. The 6SN7 family is one of the most linear in a preamplifier. Other 6dj8s have similar characteristics in preamplifier service, and the JJ/new Telefuken have approximately 1/8 the distortion, some 18db less, than the 6sn7.

The JJ brand is somewhat noisy for phono but the new Telefunken by JJ is dead quiet.

Just some data for the public.

Cheers
Steve

bladesmith · « **Reply #51 on:** 6 Dec 2015, 04:45 am »

I'm solid state throughout.
Except for my 6SN7 tube buffer.
I can't live without my 6SN7 buffer.

jtsnead · « **Reply #52 on:** 9 Dec 2015, 02:56 pm »

Thought I would share this I got an email from Cary Audio about a half off sale
you can get a 6SN7 tube preamp with remote for $748 right now new!

http://www.caryaudio.com/cary-direct/b-stock/

rotarius · « **Reply #53 on:** 13 Dec 2015, 04:24 am »

I have had quite a few tube preamps and agree with a lot of the recommendations so far. In my opinion, the mapletree preamps are superb and will compete with preamps that cost much more. I love 6sn7 tubes! You cannot go wrong with a used Cary pre either. His AES AE3 preamps are great little budget pieces and if you can find the DJH version, even better. Some of the others I can comment on:
Rogue Metis : good one, nice drive, quite a bargain, can be a little noisy in some setups if I recall.
Belles 20A: Dark, smooth, bassy, 12au7 based.
Grounded grid: Nice one, a very good design but it can sound a little light, needs to be matched carefully.
Quicksilver linestage (older version): I could never get rid of upper-mid/lower treble harshness so not great for classical but good dynamics and tone.
Audible Illusions 2d, 3a: Overrated, too much gain and noisy.

rotarius · « **Reply #54 on:** 13 Dec 2015, 04:31 am »

Quote from: jtsnead on 9 Dec 2015, 02:56 pm

Thought I would share this I got an email from Cary Audio about a half off sale
you can get a 6SN7 tube preamp with remote for $748 right now new!

http://www.caryaudio.com/cary-direct/b-stock/

Wow, that is a sweet deal!

Freo-1 · « **Reply #55 on:** 13 Dec 2015, 01:50 pm »

Quote from: TomS on 5 Dec 2015, 03:00 pm

The Tortuga is amazing and competitive at any price, but for the coin it's a crazy steal. It is totally transparent, zero harshness, but it isn't going to sprinkle your system with any toobiness, particularly like 6SN7's will. Also, there are many flavors of 6SN7 and the good ones can become very pricey. If he can do it as 12SN7's instead of the 6.3v version, they're not in as much demand.

Good point on the 12SN7's. However, they are getting pretty scarce, which means they are creeping up in price.

I recently changed out the driver tubes in my 1625 power amp from 12SN7 to 6BL7. In this application, the 6BL7 provides marked improvement with the amp's performance across the board. I think there are a couple of preamps that use the 6BL7.

Another tube that makes a great preamp tube is the 5687. I think Modwright made a 5687 preamp.

rodge827 · « **Reply #56 on:** 13 Dec 2015, 02:43 pm »

Quote from: Freo-1 on 13 Dec 2015, 01:50 pm

Another tube that makes a great preamp tube is the 5687. I think Modwright made a 5687 preamp.

I had an Audio Note Kits L3 preamp that used the 5687 tube. Great preamp but out of the required budget.

Steve · « **Reply #57 on:** 14 Dec 2015, 10:25 pm »

Quote from: rotarius on 13 Dec 2015, 04:24 am

I have had quite a few tube preamps and agree with a lot of the recommendations so far. In my opinion, the mapletree preamps are superb and will compete with preamps that cost much more. I love 6sn7 tubes! You cannot go wrong with a used Cary pre either. His AES AE3 preamps are great little budget pieces and if you can find the DJH version, even better. Some of the others I can comment on:
Rogue Metis : good one, nice drive, quite a bargain, can be a little noisy in some setups if I recall.
Belles 20A: Dark, smooth, bassy, 12au7 based.
Grounded grid: Nice one, a very good design but it can sound a little light, needs to be matched carefully.
Quicksilver linestage (older version): I could never get rid of upper-mid/lower treble harshness so not great for classical but good dynamics and tone.
Audible Illusions 2d, 3a: Overrated, too much gain and noisy.

Remember that the design and parts, such as capacitors, are at least as important as the tubes used. One cannot necessarily align sonic signature to a specific tube.

Cheers
Steve

twitch54 · « **Reply #58 on:** 14 Dec 2015, 10:32 pm »

how about a ARC SP9, perhaps even the mkII version could be had for around 1k

JLM · « **Reply #59 on:** 23 Dec 2015, 08:55 pm »

OK I pulled the trigger on a DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core DAC/preamp/DSP. Yep 100% solid state. Spoke today with Walter Liederman (Underwood HiFi) and he raved about it (according to him very close to a $3000 DAC and $2000 preamp, but the DSP is the real game changer). It retails for $1200, he advertises it for $1049, but I'm getting it for his unadvertised price. It has RCA, XLR, and optical inputs/outputs as well as USB input, remote, and microphone for calibration. He includes it in his $7,000-13,000 recommended systems as the system DAC/preamp/DSP.

I'm giving up on tubes at least for now (have had mixed experiences over the years). The Jolida Fusion DAC/preamp I looked at was just cheaper stuff put together. Schiit preamps are primarily headphone amps, they just don't make for remarkable preamps and no remote. Decware ZStage gained no traction outside their own forum and again no remote. iFi iTube had a fixed tube, was cheap, but just seemed too small/cheap to be taken seriously, and of course no remote. A Don Sachs SP14 seemed to be high quality and could be bought with remote but the price was over $2000 for a cottage industry source. The B-stock Cary was $750 with remote, which was probably the best alternate I found, but it was B-stock (with no explanation as to it's history).

And just couldn't get my head around the Tortuga passive (had a cheap passive that didn't sound good to me), used lasers that would require replacement every few years, and ultimately it is another cottage source. Didn't try calling Morten, but he never returned my inquiry either.

The DSP is a 2 channel digital processing device that provides speaker in-room correction up to 500 Hz (the primary emphasis), Parametric EQ, frequency shelving, full spectrum "tilt" (high quality tone controls), and bass "compensation". All this is reasonable easy to set up via it's own (small) screen.

The last few weeks have been full of research, with lots of wavering back and forth. Ultimately I wasn't comfortable with the combination of tubes and cottage, used, or B-stock. And the quality I was looking for just wasn't going to come cheap enough to suit my budget. I want to thank everyone for all the input.