Digital amps taking over the market?

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #20 on:** 20 Oct 2004, 12:23 am »

Quote from: muralman1

Funny how things stick.

muralman1 · « **Reply #21 on:** 20 Oct 2004, 12:45 am »

yeah, I do. there isn't much else to say, except I did mention there are three models, that's new. And I said the H2O site is up, skeletal as it is. Oh yes, I mentioned both Stereotimes, and 6Moons are each getting amps. that's news too. I have lots more, like there are several owner reviews on the net, and there are several types of speakers the H2O is powering now. Things have noved on. Just not my take on the H2O.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #22 on:** 20 Oct 2004, 12:48 am »

Quote from: muralman1

yeah, I do. there isn't much else to say, except I did mention there are three models, that's new. And I said the H2O site is up, skeletal as it is. Oh yes, I mentioned both Stereotimes, and 6Moons are each getting amps. that's news too. I have lots more, like there are several owner reviews on the net, and there are several types of speakers the H2O is powering now. Things have noved on. Just not my take on the H2O.

What....no links.....

zybar · « **Reply #23 on:** 20 Oct 2004, 12:51 am »

Quote from: muralman1

Funny how things stick. from what I heard, As the H2O was started the system was malfunctioned, and when they got the bug fixed, the AR went in. It's a shame a more prolonged listen didn't happen.

Not exactly correct...

I hope to hear the amp again in the future or bring my 201's up to Bob's house for a more complete comparison.

George

muralman1 · « **Reply #24 on:** 20 Oct 2004, 12:54 am »

oops, I've been at Agon too.

Here is the link: www.iceh2oaudio.com

There now, you happy?

muralman1 · « **Reply #25 on:** 20 Oct 2004, 01:01 am »

Zybar, the amps are rolling out. They are elongated to accept fast firing capacitors, along with some other changes, mostly cosmetic. I have the MH2O Signature monos. This is an amp that I will put against the most revered. They are going to be reviewed.

I think Henry can be persuaded to loan a production amp out. Drop him a line.

zybar · « **Reply #26 on:** 20 Oct 2004, 01:03 am »

Very extensive review section - NOT!!

http://www.iceh2oaudio.com/reviewListings.cfm

What's the point?

Just wait until a proper website can be established - this site is basically worthless.

George

muralman1 · « **Reply #27 on:** 20 Oct 2004, 01:29 am »

I didn't say it had a very extensive review section! I said there are reviews available. As for the site, it's a start. The pics give an idea, and some can be blown up. It provides a connection to the builder.

Here are some reviews, all Apogee owners. There will be more soon from owners of other systems.

http://audioworld.com/sw/Forum1/HTML/003479.html

http://audioworld.com/sw/Forum1/HTML/003490.html

http://audioworld.com/sw/Forum1/HTML/003512.html

http://audioworld.com/sw/Forum1/HTML/003598.html

http://audioworld.com/sw/Forum1/HTML/003859.html

zybar · « **Reply #28 on:** 20 Oct 2004, 01:37 am »

Quote from: muralman1

I didn't say it had a very extensive review section! I said there are reviews available. As for the site, it's a start. The pics give an idea, and some can be blown up. It provides a connection to the builder.

Here are some reviews, all Apogee owners. There will be more soon from owners of other systems.

http://audioworld.com/sw/Forum1/HTML/003479.html

http://audioworld.com/sw/Forum1/HTML/003490.html

http://audioworld.com/sw/Forum1/HTML/003512.html

http://audioworld.com/sw/Forum1/HTML/003598.html

http://audioworld.com/sw/Forum1/HTML/003859.html

Have Henry get these up on his website instead of what he has up there.

George

zybar · « **Reply #29 on:** 20 Oct 2004, 01:38 am »

Quote from: muralman1

Zybar, the amps are rolling out. They are elongated to accept fast firing capacitors, along with some other changes, mostly cosmetic. I have the MH2O Signature monos. This is an amp that I will put against the most revered. They are going to be reviewed.

I think Henry can be persuaded to loan a production amp out. Drop him a line.

What is in the Signature monos vs. the stock monos?

George

muralman1 · « **Reply #30 on:** 20 Oct 2004, 02:05 am »

Um.....

I don't know. I'm not a techy. So far, there are only two of us who have them.

zybar · « **Reply #31 on:** 20 Oct 2004, 02:01 pm »

Quote from: muralman1

Um..... I don't know. I'm not a techy. So far, there are only two of us who have them.

Why would you buy a signature version of something if you don't know how it is different from the stock version? That has nothing to do with being a techy...

George

muralman1 · « **Reply #32 on:** 20 Oct 2004, 04:02 pm »

Because I trust the maker, Henry Ho, implicitly. You have to know Henry to understand.

JohnR · « **Reply #33 on:** 20 Oct 2004, 04:14 pm »

Quote from: zybar

Very extensive review section - NOT!!

http://www.iceh2oaudio.com/reviewListings.cfm

That's very funny. "Ann Dam"??!!

rooze · « **Reply #34 on:** 29 Oct 2004, 04:18 pm »

Hi, just stumbled upon this thread and found it interesting.

I think in 10 years we will have digital (class D, T or a new digital technology) amps versus tubes, and conventional transistorized SS will be less common.
Digital amps make good sense if the technology is applied properly.

There are some issues though that really bother me, and it's more to do with peoples perception, than the amps themselves.
People buy into a new product and they invariably get excited about it, after all, that is what we are all trying to achieve. However, sometimes the excitement runs amok and people start to make claims that are difficult to substantiate and may sometimes be motivated by outside influences, like a loyalty to a particular manufacturer that started out through an earlier product, but is carried forward regardless of the quality of future products. You get my drift.

I recently fell foul of over zealous reporting on behalf of dealers and equipment owners, and it lead to an expensive mistake.
I got caught up on the digital bandwaggon and picked up not one, but two Carver Pro ZR1600 amps, to power Magnepan 3.6 speakers. These amps were relatively inexpensive at under a $1000 each, but I wasn't looking for 'cheap' I was looking for an amp that sounded better than a Krell FPB200 which I'd just sold.
I communicated with the dealer and was told by him that people were flocking to trade-in their big Krell's and Pass amps for the Carvers.
I frequented AudioGon, and the Asylum and this board, and read posts from excited Carver owners that ultimately lead to my buying into the deal.
Well in stock form, the Carvers sound like a reaonable $1000 amp. Not great, not special, just reasonable. Sure they have a ton of power, and I appreciate that as a Magnepan owner, but what good is power without musical finesse?
So the person who sold me these amps, and described them as 'giant killler' well, I'll leave that one where it is.
I then picked up on various threads from people saying 'the Carvers sound fantastic when modified....they just have to be modified to sound their best'....etc, etc.
Well, I heard a certain potential in the stock unit, a certain tube-like midrange that I strive for and fair bass control etc. (I'm not going to turn this into a review).
So I went ahead and had the unit modified, and with shipping costs, spent over $2500 for modifications on an amp that retailed for less than a $1000.

Now the mods were carried out very efficiently and in all fairness I only have about 120 hrs on the amp, but it is still no giant killer.
The mods improved certain aspects of the sound and did nothing negative, but it still doesn't do what the Krell did in my system. And why should it you ask, the Krell had a $5900 retail and the Carver, with mods, $3500
Well the point is I was told that out of the box, in stock form, the Carver would sound better than anything from Krell. I was told this by the dealer, and it was reinforced by what people were saying on the message boards.
Now I have fairly good hearing and I've owned a fair few amps, but the Carver lacks dynamic impact, particularly in the lower midrange and upper bass. It has nice midrange warmth, liquidity and presence, but this is partly due to the upper frequencies being rolled off and somewhat muted.
I could go on, and on, and on.
What is most disconcerting is that I have $3500 into an amp that probably has a street value of $1500 at the most. So I've blown away $2000 and that really pisses me off.

I will close by warning people not to get sucked in by a persons enthusiasm for a new product, or a new technology or anything for that matter. And I would ask dealers to be more cautious when making recomendations that are mostly hyperbole and not based on real facts.
The digital amp technology, though having been around for quite a few years, is in its infancy in home audio terms. So of you are seriously interested in buying into the technology, don't do what I did, arrange a good home demonstration first, and seek out a reputable dealer that will give you an honest appraisal of a product and not just a bunch of sales talk and spin.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #35 on:** 29 Oct 2004, 04:21 pm »

Well said rooze....and welcome to AC. I hope you just saved someone a bundle...and purged YOUR internal system a bit

Zero · « **Reply #36 on:** 29 Oct 2004, 05:44 pm »

Rooz,

Thank you for sharing some insight and providing individuals with a viewpoint that is vastly over-shadowed by enthusiasm. It is quite easy to get caught up in what is perceived as a great value. As you well know, the "digital amp" craze has been the centerfold of such hyperbole.

One must always bear in mind what a product is and strive to finding a financially efficient means of experiencing it for themselves. But sometimes in this audio gig, it is easy to get burned on bad advice and it ends up costing you a mint. You live, and hopefully, can claim to have learned a few things.

shokunin · « **Reply #37 on:** 29 Oct 2004, 05:58 pm »

Rooze,

Good post. Your post just reinforces the need for all of us to listen to these components in our systems and make a decision/opinion from there. I have had a lot of gear come in and out of my system, and I've probably lost quite a good chunk money by buying and selling gear, but one cannot discount the experience of figuring what works in your system and getting your system to sound the way you want.

tkp · « **Reply #38 on:** 29 Oct 2004, 06:28 pm »

Rooze,

What are you doing?

I was hoping the hyped continue on so I can buy good old analog amp for cheap from the used market

.

I still remembered when I first entered highend audio 10 years ago, I listenned to hype and buying product without audition. The sad part about this was that I have been a practicing electronic engineers for 15 years now. Instead of relying on my technical back ground, I chose to believe that one can get some thing for free in this world. In the end I found out that there is nothing for free in this world. It is all about trade off. To truely know a piece of audio gear, one has to live with it for awhile (like a year). Great first time impression might not result in long term satisfaction.

After playing the amp upgrade games for almost 9 years. I ended up with analog amplifiers with a well implemented 25 years old analog design. Now, before any one jump on this and said that there is no way a 25 years old analog design can touch the recent amplifier design. You need to know that these old amp are on par or maybe a bit better than the Ampzilla2000 which I still owned.

zybar · « **Reply #39 on:** 29 Oct 2004, 06:31 pm »

Quote from: tkp

Rooze,

What are you doing?

I was hoping the hyped continue on so I can buy good old analog amp for cheap from the used market .

I still remembered when I first entered highend audio 10 years ago, I listenned to hype and buying product without audition. The sad part about this was that I have been a practicing electronic engineers for 15 years now. Instead of relying on my technical back ground, I chose to believe that one can get some thing for free in this world. In the end I found out that ...

So what are the amps?

I believe you since I owned and used a rebuilt pair of Stromberg-Carlson amps from the 40's that were better than many, many $5-8K modern amps I compared them to. The only reason I ever sold them was because I needed more power when I went to the RM 40's.

George