[Brad]

Honestly I think stupid people get what they deserve. If you're retarded enough to go out and pay for anything (cars, audio equipment, hookers) without shopping around first and comparing price/performance you deserve the diseased sack of crap you get.

How do you shop for the price/performance ratio of a hooker without buying the services first?

Now that's the interesting question here  
We should develop some type of rating system, obviously.
I can see this being a 5 yr project.

Also kind of neat to see one of Nathan's post derailed instead of vice versa  

[drphoto]

Let's face it. Most people just want background music.

And Bose hase a pretty slick package with their 'all in one' CD changer/ amp and those tiny hide away speakers.

Maybe it does suck.....but so does McDonalds and Budwieser.

I have to admit to having a grudging admiration for great marketing.

Feed the sheep....its the American way.

[Pez]

Did you know that Bose design criterea is marketing first, looks second, packaging third, and performance is only to be considered after there is 80%+ mark-up on the product?

I hate to say it Eric, but this shows that you really don't know what Bose mark-up is.  I know for sure that the stores mark-up alone is easily 200%-250%.  I know because I sell audio for a small company and I am very familiar with how much we mark up equipment. As a matter of fact I have access to equipment at 65% less than what you pay retail and I also know that the said audio companies (not Bose) still make a profit at 65% less than retail.  

Actually an 80% mark-up is quite conservative and wouldn't be a bad deal at all. Is Bose evil for their often 400%-500% (probably more than that) markup? Hardly. Is it unethical? No. Do people take the bait? Yes. Does Bose deserve every penny they earn? Hell yes. Admit it Eric if you could invest $1000 and knew you would easily quadruple your initial investment very quickly you would do it in a heart beat.  

Bose is the American dream and the audio enthusiasts nightmare.

[Pez]

How do you shop for the price/performance ratio of a hooker without buying the services first?

The best way is through referals.  

[ehider]

Ah yes the mark-up at Bose.  I was actually referring to mark-up AFTER the multi-million dollar advertising campaign is figured in to the price of the product!  After the overhead is figured in. After the employees salaries are paid.

It's all about pushing the American dream to the limits. Take their money, sell them crap, market the hell out of it. The sheep deserve to be ignorant and make Bose wealthy with their stupid purchases.

[Dan Banquer]

I view this in a few ways. The lack of any real music education in the U.S.A is to me, self evident. I just can't see anyone who values or has some understanding of music buying by Bose Loudspeakers. However if your a real fan of the pop music out there that has hyper compression, and near constant clipping, Bose seems very appropriate.
As I look at the younger generation, ( I am 50) I get a real strong sense that they have never heard live unamplified acoustic music. I will paraphrase my step son who made some very interesting comments. " Dan, think of the distortion we are surrounded with on a daily bassis, boom boxes, TV, computers, etc.etc. With this kind of daily barrage, it sounds normal to us, and anything else sounds more abnormal."
Frightening, isn't it.

[Jay S]

I just can't see anyone who values or has some understanding of music buying by Bose Loudspeakers. However if your a real fan of the pop music out there that has hyper compression, and near constant clipping, Bose seems very appropriate.

Constant clipping... geez, helps me understand why many pop recordings are no fun to listen to on, ironically, a good system.  As a result, I'm listening to more and more jazz.  I recently got a double CD of John William's greatest hits, and listening to old favorites like the Star Wars theme and the Imperial March (that makes a good wedding march.. he he   ) makes me realize how enjoyable orchestra music can be on a good system.   As the pop music industry continues to sink, it doesn'jt seem too likely they'll invest much in better quality recordings.  Let's hope that hi-rez somehow reaches a critical mass.

[Psychicanimal]

As I look at the younger generation, ( I am 50) I get a real strong sense that they have never heard live unamplified acoustic music. I will paraphrase my step son who made some very interesting comments. " Dan, think of the distortion we are surrounded with on a daily bassis, boom boxes, TV, computers, etc.etc. With this kind of daily barrage, it sounds normal to us, and anything else sounds more abnormal."
Frightening, isn't it.

Well Dan, don't 'high end' purchasers fall for sonic coloration and excitement, too?  The ultra expensive power cord craze is the other side of the coin, IMO.

A friend lent me one of his BMI Whale Elite power cords and it is like the Bose of power cords: bloated bass, impressive forward facing, clear midrange/soundstage and rolled off highs.  I'm going back to my $50 Absolute Power Cord...

[Dan Banquer]

Considering that Nora Jones won a bunch of grammys and so did the engineering on that CD, I am mildly optimistic these days. Whatever you think of Nora Jones, the recording is surprisingly good. It's what the technology is capable of and if someone takes the time and effort to do something worthwhile.
Good things can happen; they just don't happen on a consistent basis.

[HarleyMYK]

This topic has been visited heavily at other web sites.  Did I miss these links or did someone already post?   If not, check them out.
http://www.intellexual.net/boseframes.html

and

http://home.earthlink.net/~busenitz/bs.html

The first one takes forever to load, so be patient.

[nathanm]

Where exactly are these unamplified concerts being held anyway?  It could only be in a very small bar or club, maybe a coffee house.  Nearly every time I see a live band performing anywhere there is PA.  And no, jazz isn't any different; I've seen jazz gigs with PA too. And how often do you see vocal microphones that are anything besides a Shure SM58?  This is not what I would call an uncolored mic!  Sheesh!

But I agree with Dan that there is a lack of music education.  When it's time to trim the budget at schools what gets the axe first?  The art and music programs of course.  God forbid the fucking sports teams feel the blade for once.  Assholes...  As far as un-hyped recordings goes, I think that's a multi-faceted problem.  The engineers will slap some limiter on the stereo mix, slam it right into your face and then if that particular album happens to sell well then the marketing slugs say, "Yeah that's great, give us more of whatever you did there!"  Thus it keeps feeding the fire.

I think compression is more prevalent than distortion, though.  Bathory's are about the only albums I can think of that have obvious clipping.  But I must admit that the 0db LED on the DIO seems to light up quite a bit on some CDs.  Might be the DIO, though.  Not sure.  You'd have to analyze the digital data to see if there are indeed digital overs on the disc or if the mix itself is clipped.

Norah Jones: I don't really have any opinion of her music myself.  A friend has the CD and I listened to it briefly.  I wouldn't bet any money on her being in the limelight for very long.  Like all pop acts she'll be yesterday's news before you can blink.

Psychicanimal makes an excellent point; audiophiles should be about the last people on earth blasting Bose for high markups!  I don't know what's worse: a gimmicky overpriced speaker that's poorly made but sounds hyped enough to please the undiscerning ear or some overpriced exotic power cord that probably does...oh I dunno, maybe NOTHING?  Both camps can spend a lot and get marginal sonic rewards in return, it's just that the audiophiles look much better doing it!  Sure a CNC machined faceplate might do jack squat for the sound, but damn it sure looks sweet!

And another thing; if selling junk and making a mint is the American Dream, then FUCK America.  I'd rather have the American Nightmare if that's the case.  There is no glory in being the lowest common denominator.

[Dan Banquer]

Nathan: Have you tried to go to a chamber music concert, or Symphony? If there is a local music school in the area that might let you sit and listen at a rehearsal? or maybe attend one of their concerts?

[dayneger]

ehider, was your point that Bose is running a genuine racket here?

I just realized the root of the issue--the "umlaut" is missing from their name, which would turn it from

Bose to Böse

Böse means "mad" or "angry" in German, corresponding very well with how ones feels after realizing how badly they got jacked on their purchase.

[Carlman]

Nathan, I think you're right on.  

I was hoping the power cord analogy would come up.  I've met some of the people behind cable design who steal ideas, market them, and profit from them.  The ones that give no credit to the designer I have a problem with.  That is the American nightmare.  Bose is a great marketer.  They have proved that good marketing sells.  They don't even use sex!  In any case, making a LOT of money off of mediocre products is what they do.  Is it it right or wrong? I don't know.  Making money off the un-informed consumer is what has appeared to become blurred into the picture of the American dream.  Making a lot of money seems to be the only goal.  It used to be making a lot of money on something you chose to do really well was the American Dream.  I'm trying to follow it.  On another note, the people that can't make up their own minds about a product... and just listen to marketing, forums, etc... are the reason many companies are successful... and for all I care, can fall off a cliff.  

I agree with your comments about Norah.  I think it's sad that her album won so many Grammy's.  That style of music has been around a long time.  I like it but, it's nothing new and I don't find new things in it every time I hear it.  Why wasn't Carmen McRae this big?  In any case, I too, think she'll be gone shortly but, hopefully it will show that America is tired of 'alternative rock' and 'pop' categorical music.  Maybe she will make a difference for the good.  I hope so.  I'd love to see more real talent make it big.

BTW, I think Bose has had enough free marketing with this thread.  

-Carl

[nathanm]

BTW, I think Bose has had enough free marketing with this thread.  

That may be, but if anyone reading this goes out and buys Bose based on the positive sales pitches given here then they are extra-super-duper stupid!  Somehow I doubt that is the case.

My personal favorite cheap equipment is the stuff I used to see at any department stores.  There would be what looked like a graphical EQ on there, but if you moved one lever two other levers would move too!  It was all ganged together to look like you had six bands when there was really only two!  A prop control!  As tragically funny as that is I almost feel sorry for the technical people who actually designed this crap.  Do they cry themselves to sleep at night?  Just making ends meet till they can get a real job?

[ABEX]

Funny how many will take time to post about BOSE!

They should have Mr.T do a commercial "BOSE are great speaker's FOOL!"Buy Bose! -"They really suck ,FOOL!"

You get the drift.

[Carlman]

My personal favorite cheap equipment is the stuff I used to see at any department stores.  There would be what looked like a graphical EQ on there, but if you moved one lever two other levers would move too!  

  That brings back memories... thanks for the laugh.  Oh the memories of Service Merchandise, Kmart, and whatnot.  I used to drool over the 'rack systems' that went on sale.. until one day I saved up enough to go buy one and realized, all the separate pieces on the rack were just one!  One big plastic block with little indentions to look like there were separate components.  I didn't want to listen to it but, one was playing next to it that cost twice as much.  It sounded awful.

Crestfallen but not defeated, I bought some Acoustic Research 110's and an Onkyo stereo receiver for the same price as the big rack junk.  After several interesting attempts to have a real stereo, I finally had one!  The story never ends.

I was joking about the publicity for Bose.. I should have used one of the many clever emoticons this board offers to indicate this.  

[MediaSeth]

Department store and discount store mini stereos and glorified boomboxes seem to have replaced most pretend rack-systems, but they're just as make-believe.  They look like robots, light shows, etc.  They are supposed to look loud, I guess.  I even saw some that claimed kevlar drivers, but it was not a weave.  How anyone over the age of 12 would even think these were a good idea is beyond me.  But perhaps children are the market for these.  I think there are some industries where consumer fraud charges would have been filed if analogous tricks had been pulled.
Also, remember fake ports?  Fake "bolts" surrounding drivers? To me they were so obviously fake that you couldn't call it fraud, but to others...

[nathanm]

Those companies must have hired product designers with a background in theatrical props!  

A couple months ago I went to an American store to listen to some Klipsch speakers (which incidentally sounded god awful, which contradicts the things I had read about them.  Maybe there was some "Football Game" EQ preset on the receiver or something, I can only hope for Klipsch's sake as I felt an urge to run out of the room ASAP)  and I was drawn against my will to this shelf of boomboxes that were so impossibly obnoxious looking I could not believe my eyes.  If there isn't one already, someone should start a webpage dedicated to the most obnoxious facades of consumer electronics gear.  It is truly an art form unto itself.

[audiojerry]

I'm jumping in late again, but I have an excuse - I was vacationing in Phoenix. I've never been there before, and it was not at all what I imagined. Beautiful scenery, majestic mountainscapes everywhere, lots of genuine art and artists, gread dining, and ideal climate, at least for Feb.

Anyway, Nathan, you really get people going - what an agitator!

I don't have time to read the entire thread, but in my opinion Bose is not all bad. I own their table clock radio and really like it. It has a very big sound for its size, the bass is impressive for its size, and for casual listening it's very pleasant. It beats anything else I've heard in a clock radio. It's got a remote, it has line inputs for a cdp or vcr, and when we go on vacation, its easy to bring along and use in hotel rooms. The multiple alarm clock features are very nice, and I like the way the volume ramps up gently when it wakes you up in the morning instead of a blaring blast. It also works nice in the bathroom when soaking in the tub.

I think consumers can do a lot worse than Bose. Frankly, I'd much rather listen to my Bose than those crap ass mid-fi systems using Klipsch or Boston, or those ridiculous boom boxes. As for their other products, I don't think something like the AM-7 or AM-5 is such a bad option for a small condo or vacation cottage as a home theater surround system. The speakers are very inconspicuos and provide decent performance for a system where you don't want to see speakers mucking up the decor.    

I'm not going to condemn Bose for clever marketing. I don't think they are cheating the consumer. They offer a 30 day return policy. If the consumer is happy with what he's got and doesn't return it, I'm not going to criticize Bose. Criticize the consumer.  As long as the seller is not concealing information related to safety or misrepresenting the facts, the buyer should take responsibility for his choices.  

I've had friends and relatives listen to my system and make comments like, "Yeah, I have a Bose system and your system sounds almost as good.", or "I hear Bose is really good, have you tried Bose?"
All I can do is smile, turn of my stereo, dismiss their comments, and change the subject.