Ideas/Suggestions about room

JoshK · « **on:** 8 Oct 2004, 02:13 pm »

Hi guys,

Was wonder if you guys could give me some feedback on my room and how to treat it. I drew up a little sketch of my room layout.

I am limited in what I can put up in terms of acoustic treatment as decor is top priority for my missus. I can get away with some discrete or decor fitting treatments. My first ideas are to fabricate some tasteful wall panels with framed compressed fiberglass covered in a wall matching fabric hanging on the rear wall behind each speaker. I may be able to hide a relatively small bass trap behind my audio rack/cabinet. I was thinking of putting plants on either side of the covered up fireplace area and could probably hide some corner treatments behind that.

My room is approx 18' x 13' with 12' ceilings. I have two very large openings in the room via tall and wide archways. The ceiling is done in small tin tiles with very large rounded over crown moldings. I have zero leeway in covering up any of the ceiling or molding. The walls are all plaster over slat boards or brick. Behind the listening seat is a large archway into the hallway with exposed brick wall and staircase.

Right now the bass response in this room is quite good, if I do say so. Bass sounds really deep and tight, although I haven't taken any formal measurements I have done some frequency sweeps. Bass response outside the room in any adjacent room is quite excessive at loud volumes as there seems to be some reinforcement of bass in adjacent rooms.

The biggest problem seems to be with too much liveliness as there is a bit of slap echo in this room. This seems to make the midrange less than stellar.

For critical listening sessions, I can simply hang my robe over the plasma which acts as a nice dampener of reflections for the rear wall in between the speakers. Other very decor friendly treatment ideas are welcome. The speaker faces are about 3 - 3 1/2' in front of the plasma and nothing in between the speakers at all. Right now I am able to produce very sharp images but the soundstage has little width outside of the speakers and very little depth. I haven't evaluated using my robe, so maybe that will help with depth.

Josh

Room pictures

zybar · « **Reply #1 on:** 8 Oct 2004, 02:24 pm »

Josh,

Can't see the picture.

George

JoshK · « **Reply #2 on:** 8 Oct 2004, 02:30 pm »

there I fixed the pictures and added link to gallery of pictures of my room, most of them prior to move in.

PhilNYC · « **Reply #3 on:** 8 Oct 2004, 02:34 pm »

Josh,

Can't see the picture, but since decor is a priority, I do have a suggestion. If you get some artwork...canvas mounted on a wood frame...you can put acoustic foam behind the art and hang them at your first reflection points. I did this with 1" acoustic foam as seen on the first picture here:

http://www.sonicspirits.com/gallery.htm

The resulting improvement of doing this in the space between the speakers was very significant at deepening the soundstage, even though the painting itself has a reflective surface. It doesn't do much to reduce the slap echo (maybe fiberglass would do more in that regard), so I still use the 8th Nerve product for that.

The frame under the canvas is about 1.25" deep, and I feel like I could have gotten by using 2" acoustic foam. I suspect this would have been even more effective.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #4 on:** 8 Oct 2004, 02:43 pm »

Wow Phil, never knew you had put foam behind picture...good idea !!!

JoshK · « **Reply #5 on:** 8 Oct 2004, 02:49 pm »

Thanks.

My side walls are relative far away from the speakers with the speaker being positioned on the long wall and seating relatively nearfield. The wall behind listening position is going to be about 6-7' back and exposed brick. I think it is the wall in between the speakers that poses a problem and I can't exactly hang art there as I have a plasma hanging there now.

PhilNYC · « **Reply #6 on:** 8 Oct 2004, 03:00 pm »

How far into the room are the speakers? Can you move them out any further?

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #7 on:** 8 Oct 2004, 03:00 pm »

What about someting like this screen, you could put foam on back side and use it when listening to music....place between speakers. Just a thought...

JoshK · « **Reply #8 on:** 8 Oct 2004, 03:39 pm »

Speakers are about, measured from the front face of the speakers, about 3 1/2 feet out from the plasma and probably a good 5 1/2' from the rear wall. Wife is pushing for me to move them back closer to wall so out further isn't going to be too doable.

Red Dragon Audio · « **Reply #9 on:** 8 Oct 2004, 10:43 pm »

Here are some of my ideas...sorry for the crude drawing but that's as far as my drawing talent goes with my limited paint tools on my compy.

Tyson · « **Reply #10 on:** 8 Oct 2004, 11:10 pm »

Get a heavy curtain that can be opened/closed by remote control, and put it on the front wall. That way you can "open" it like a movie theater when you're watching TV, or close it when doing music listening. That will help front wall reflections a lot.

JoshK · « **Reply #11 on:** 11 Oct 2004, 04:03 pm »

My father-in-law and I finished most of the structural changes to our living room this weekend. It was actually quite fun despite the hard work.

Here is before/after pictures...

before (actually during, as we started to strip out the plaster to make it go faster)

after...

audioslave · « **Reply #12 on:** 11 Oct 2004, 05:58 pm »

The works look great Josh! You are slowly but surely getting there.

Red Dragon Audio · « **Reply #13 on:** 11 Oct 2004, 06:16 pm »

Great job on the remodel work. I'm sure it will look even better when it's finished.

beat · « **Reply #14 on:** 11 Oct 2004, 09:24 pm »

Hey Josh,
I would have to say my vote would be for heavy velvet curtains that you slide into place when you want serious listening. If you have them sliding on a copper pole hanging from the ceiling at the point of first reflection off the sides...kind of a non issue in your case maybe due to the width and the open arch way to the left, but it would give you balance and help with the mids. On the same token, maybe you would need a little dispersion instead of absorbtion so use something more vinyl like. Behind you you could do a combination hanging panel to adjust for bass as/if needed. You could design them to have the japanese folding panels, heavy velvet theatre style hanging, or maybe have a panel that retracts behind the couch and you can raise it as needed comprised of fiberglass and cloth. Chix dig velvet curtains though.
food for thought,
beat

soliver · « **Reply #15 on:** 12 Oct 2004, 03:09 pm »

I would defiantely put some hard fiberglass panels like Echobusters on that back brick wall to keep the brick wall from reflecting everything back at you, plus that area could act as a bass multiplier with it kind of being a semi-enclosed area.

For the front wall the curtain idea is a good one. Also just some absorbtion panels or absorbtion/ diffusion panels on either side of the Tv would work well too. Then another really good product for aiding in imaging and soundstaging are the Argent Room Lenses. you could two in the usual flanking position on the outside edges of the speaker, and the third could be placed in a variety of positions depending on the way the room is being used at the time. It could be put in front of the TV when doing serious music listening. It could be placed dead center behind the couch for HT use or it could be just moved outside of the room altogether during these times as well. They are very easy to move.

Lastly I would definately put up some ceiling corner treatments.

My thoughts.

JoshK · « **Reply #16 on:** 12 Oct 2004, 03:20 pm »

Thanks guys,

one thought....

Quote

Lastly I would definately put up some ceiling corner treatments.

That one is most definitely out of the question. That would seriously detract from the looks of the room, even from my perspective.

I am a bit baffled by the comments to treat or add something behind the listening position though. To me, this has been a big improvement in the sound to have this opened up. Tonal balance has leveled out and I am getting the best bass I have ever heard in any system. My estimation is that the back of the room is working like a diffuser or "live end". Problem in my own perspective is in front on the wall with my speakers (the rear wall from speaker perspective). This is too live and too reflective. I am not sure I can get away with the curtain idea but I'll give it some thought.

My ideas were to put two taller plants on either side of the TV wall and then something on either side of the TV, then fabricating a removable absortion treatment that can hang over the TV when seriously listening. Large area rug is a must IMO, without it I am getting far too much floor reflection. I cannot detect a ceiling reflection but given the ceiling is more than twice as tall as the speakers and tall than I am away, it probably isnt' playing too much havoc.

Red Dragon Audio · « **Reply #17 on:** 12 Oct 2004, 05:00 pm »

Quote from: JoshK

Thanks guys,

one thought....

That one is most definitely out of the question. That would seriously detract from the looks of the room, even from my perspective.

I firmly agree that it wouldn't look good in your room as it would cover up the molding.

Quote from: JoshK

I am a bit baffled by the comments to treat or add something behind the listening position though. To me, this has been a big improvement in the sound to have this opened up. Tonal balance has leveled out and I am getting the best bass I have ever heard in any system. My estimation is that the back of the room is working like a diffuser or "live end".

If it sounds better to you, leave it that way. I bet the tonal balance improved because of a couple things:
1) Bass now is able to escape into the upstairs as well as the other opening of the room. (I'm sure there are still some bass problems but perhaps they aren't as serious now).
2) By knocking out that back wall you are now much further from it so the reflections aren't such a problem. Plus it's brick and uneven surfaces (stairs, railing etc) which are diffusing some of the sound.

Quote from: JoshK

Problem in my own perspective is in front on the wall with my speakers (the rear wall from speaker perspective). This is too live and too reflective. I am not sure I can get away with the curtain idea but I'll give it some thought.

You are probably right about the front wall being too live. If you could somehow treat that whole wall behind your speakers; maybe you could have a fabric covered wall with polyester batting underneath it or maybe http://www.knauffiberglass.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=prd.dspProdDetail&ID=21">1" thick theater insulation board (3.00 PCF). Since you are in the demolition phase, maybe you could do this and cover it with a nice fabric all the way up and down the front the walls. Move the moldings out a bit so they are even with the 1" thick insulation board and cover the rest of the walls with the same fabric so it looks the same. Just an idea however it is rather crazy.

Quote from: JoshK

My ideas were to put two taller plants on either side of the TV wall and then something on either side of the TV, then fabricating a removable absortion treatment that can hang over the TV when seriously listening. Large area rug is a must IMO, without it I am getting far too much floor reflection. I cannot detect a ceiling reflection but given the ceiling is more than twice as tall as the speakers and tall than I am away, it probably isnt' playing too much havoc..

You are right about the ceiling not playing a role in first reflections because of its distance from the speakers and you. The floor is certainly going to have some ill effects so a bigger area rug is in order. Maybe even get a piece of carpet padding to put underneath it as well.

Trees on either side of the speaker will provide some diffusion, minimal absorbtion and are very easy to move around. I used to use a pair of fake ficus trees with my magnepans to good effect. You could even hide some cloth covered temporary absorbtion behind them.

A temporary cover for your plasma screen is a very good idea but you still have large, highly reflective walls above, below and to the sides of the TV The plasma screen surface area is very small compared to the rest of the walls which are probably the real culprit regarding that "live" sound. There is a good article or two on the http://www.audioperfectionist.com/"> AudioPerfectionist.com. he has a thing or two to say about treating the wall directly behind your speakers. The author is very passionate about his ideas (almost too much) but does offer some great reasoning and tips about treating an everyday room.

Good luck as usual!

JoshK · « **Reply #18 on:** 12 Oct 2004, 05:21 pm »

Thanks Ryan, and actually I totally agree with your idea of using fabric covered absorption material on the front wall. Actually this is what I had in mind if I can get away with it with the missus. Since I am somewhat handy, have the tools and have a Compressed fiberglass dealer a block away I will buy a small amount and see what I can do. My wife aknowledges the acoustic issues so I think she will be a little leanient in helping me come to a resolution.

I think it is just useful to think about all this now before committing to look and final renovation. The front wall we haven't touched yet.

beat · « **Reply #19 on:** 12 Oct 2004, 05:43 pm »

Quote

My ideas were to put two taller plants on either side of the TV wall and then something on either side of the TV, then fabricating a removable absortion treatment that can hang over the TV when seriously listening.

It wouldnt work as well as plain fabric, but you could always put fiberglass behind a real canvas painting. I've heard it works decently. Watercolor would work better than oils or acrylic but hard to find on canvas.