Fuse type for the Magneplanar 1.7i and who's tried Synergistic or Hi-Fi Supreme

barrows · « **Reply #20 on:** 11 Jul 2015, 11:19 pm »

Quote from: SteveFord on 11 Jul 2015, 10:35 pm

barrows,
It seems you feel that audiophile grade fuses offer something that a regular old fuse from Radio Shack can't provide.

In your experience, exactly what constitutes an audiophile grade fuse?
What would make it special?
Was there a reason for the cryo treating?
What sonic benefits can the end user expect?
Did you do A/B or blind testing and did the results make you decide to go ahead and carry these fuses?

I've been wrong before so learn me somethin' as they say.
This is not an invitation to be ridiculed, these are honest questions.

Steve: I am not here to try and prove anything, I responded to this thread as the OP asked for feedback from those with experience. My experience with fuses is strictly for slow blow ("T") fuses used at the AC input of audio components. In that experience I have consistently heard sonic differences with the following fuses vs a good quality standard fuse (say littlefuse ceramic body): AHP with cryo treatment as distributed by PS Audio, Furutech, Hi Fi Tuning Supreme, and Synergistic Red. In all cases the sonic difference was subtle (to a layman, perhaps none at all, but I assume we are talking about audiophiles here, who appreciate fine differences in playback) but appreciable.
At the most basic level, if you measure the above fuses just for resistance alone, you will find lower resistance than a standard fuse of the same value.

I do not discuss listen testing methods (blind etc) on forums anymore, as those discussions go nowhere fast.

In any case, if people are interested in trying aftermarket fuses in their equipment, they can often do so with little financial risk: I do believe Synergistic Research, for one example, offers a money back policy. I encourage people to do their own listening, in their own systems, and decide for themselves, and not take my experience for any more than it is.

Believe me, as I mentioned in my first post, I find it maddening that things like this make a difference, but I do not deny what I hear. I would suggest that anyone who cannot hear differences with power cable swaps probably would be wasting their time experimenting with fuse swaps.

I am not an audio dealer, so I do not sell fuses (although I have in the past when I worked at PS Audio). Currently, my only Industry affiliation is as a part time consultant working with Simple Design/Sonore on product development/etc.

Davey · « **Reply #21 on:** 11 Jul 2015, 11:49 pm »

Expectation bias for this type of snake oil product ruins any objectivity a user might have. Money back policies are fine but seldom used because the fragile audiophile ego has a hard time admitting there is no audible difference. More likely the products would be advertised for sale on a forum like this vice returning to a vendor/manufacturer.

The "anyone who can't hear the difference" retort is insulting to fellow audiophiles because it belittles their apparent lack of listening sophistication. Which they most likely don't have.

All of this is secondary to the main issue.....which is whether or not these fuses operate to their specified ratings in the safety aspect. Subjective evaluation of any audible artifacts is completely beside the point.

For the end audiophile user, the cost of development, marketing, sales, etc, etc, is irrelevant. The only thing that matters (or should matter) is the performance/price ratio of said product.

Dave.

steve f · « **Reply #22 on:** 12 Jul 2015, 12:49 am »

Well said Dave. I'm in complete agreement.

Steve

SteveFord · « **Reply #23 on:** 12 Jul 2015, 02:07 am »

I'm going to have to do the Great Fuse Torture Test here and see what I think.
This will give me something to do while I recuperate from sinus surgery.
My expectation is that there won't be any difference at all but I'm always happy to be proved wrong.
Maybe we'll do a little Road Show for the Maggie owners and everyone can chime in on what they found - good, bad or indifferent.
I'll use my wife for the blind testing - she already thinks we're nuts, this will only solidify her position!

Waker · « **Reply #24 on:** 12 Jul 2015, 07:20 am »

As much as this hobby is such an individual experience that rather defies predictability, there are enough proponents of boutique fuses to merit consideration. From my listening experience with first HiFi Tuning and then Furutech fuses in my 3.6R's, I can say that, to my ears, they are both a sound improvement that can be heard upon first listen. There was no mistaking or merely hoping to hear a difference. Both brands imparted more clarity and midrange body, with the Furutech rhodiums beating the HiFi silver and gold. An additional tweak, though, was to double the fuse values to 5 and 10 amps rather than the stock 2.5 and 5 ratings, with the belief this would increase the filament sizes---something like "bypassing" the fuse pathway without attacking the speaker to do so. With a rock-solid power supply to my amps, I don't worry about defeating the protection of a fuse--not at all worried for four years now. But, these fuses may be heard best in systems that are pretty much "done", in that, power, power cables and other cables are where you want them to be, as well as isolation tweaks and other aids, such as Mye Stands, subs, etc are in place. Everything is additive, and the boutique fuses unveil the whole presentation that much more. I have carefully evaluated all of my tweaks, am not given to BS, and stand by my findings. If the hardcore deniers here have not tried some of these fuses or other tweaks they don't believe in, there is no basis for that belief, other than just mouthing opinions that have been handed down to them. If you are fortunate to have a fairly resolving system, you will have fun trying these in your Maggies--probably the most beneficial application of these fuses of all the places in components they can be trialed. It's more fun to try them than to argue against them.

Speedskater · « **Reply #25 on:** 12 Jul 2015, 10:58 am »

Fuses might be used in three different locations in an audio component:

a} The input AC supply
b} The DC supply
c} The audio output

In positions {a} & {b} fuse differences will be neither audible or measurable.

In position {c} with special test stands, fuse distortion can be measured. But it's very doubtful that it's audible or different from brand to brand.

(see Bob Cordell)[/b]

louie3 · « **Reply #26 on:** 12 Jul 2015, 02:33 pm »

Methinks Barrows doth protest too much, frankly.

I am just glad my ears don't allow me to hear differences in fuses.

Too bad for me.

louie3 · « **Reply #27 on:** 12 Jul 2015, 02:38 pm »

Oh, and one note to the OP's question.

In my experiments with a pair of SMGcs I found that no fuse, or fuse holder, is the best fuse.

I am sure if my ears had allowed me to hear better this would have been different.

But then I don't have to play music really loud to enjoy it, so removing the fuse and holder and replacing it with a piece of wire was of no particular danger, I am sure if you have Barrows' ears this might be a problem, for a while, till you ruin your hearing playing your music too loud.

Peace Bros

Tomy2Tone · « **Reply #28 on:** 12 Jul 2015, 03:27 pm »

I've tried a few different fuses in my amps and dac with the SR Red being the preferred fuse. Some have tried the Red and didn't like the effect so it's something that is system dependent.

I've tried the Audio Horizons fuse and thought it had a negative effect so....I sent it back. Honestly, I tried it, didn't like, and sent it back and received my money back.

SteveFord- What type of fuse are you going to try? You talkin about a fuse tour?

Hope the Crown is still working for ya!

SteveFord · « **Reply #29 on:** 12 Jul 2015, 09:03 pm »

Yep, a fuse tour is in our future.
I'll have to scan this thread and see what fuses are being talked up and then see what will work in the Maggies.
Yeah, the Crown works great with the MMGs; even though it sounds best right into the wall I had to plug it into the APC unit as otherwise the wife will never turn it on. Too many buttons to press!

barrows · « **Reply #30 on:** 12 Jul 2015, 11:08 pm »

This discussion has entered the laughable territory, so I am going to make a final post and then not waste my time here anymore.

"Expectation bias for this type of snake oil product ruins any objectivity a user might have. Money back policies are fine but seldom used because the fragile audiophile ego has a hard time admitting there is no audible difference. More likely the products would be advertised for sale on a forum like this vice returning to a vendor/manufacturer."

I see that you are the all knowing and all seeing GOD now, and that you better understand reality than any other audiophile possibly could. Hope that you can see some humour in my remark. But seriously, the "expectation bias" argument will not get very far with me. If our abilities to fool ourselves were actually so good, there would be no point in highly pleasing high end playback systems at all: we could all just convince ourselves that a Bose Wave Radio sounds as good as anything else available. Hell, there would be little need to actually take in live concerts either.

'The "anyone who can't hear the difference" retort is insulting to fellow audiophiles because it belittles their apparent lack of listening sophistication. Which they most likely don't have.'

Clearly some listeners are better than others. Listening is a learned skill which takes paractice, training, and probably some talent as well. Why does it have to be insulting that some people can listen better than others? Roger Federer can play tennis much better than I ever could, but I would never find that fact insulting if someone pointed it out to me.

I encourage anyone who is curious to try aftermarket fuses for themselves, in their own systems, and return them if they hold no value for you. After all, enjoyment of audio is totally personal, and not subject to what I, or anyone else, says about it.

SteveFord · « **Reply #31 on:** 12 Jul 2015, 11:16 pm »

I'll pick up some fuses and we'll do a little Road Show and we'll see what people think.
One thing that I have been warned about - these audiophile fuses may NOT blow at the rated spec so do not blame me if you blow up your stuff as you have now officially been warned and I will not accept any responsibility for popped ribbons or whatever.

steve f · « **Reply #32 on:** 12 Jul 2015, 11:42 pm »

Steve Ford,

Thank you for taking this subject to task. I only wish I could participate. I gifted my MMGs.
Can I offer a suggestion? After the tour send them to Roger Modjeski. Ask him to test them against standard fuses.

steve

Waker · « **Reply #33 on:** 13 Jul 2015, 12:24 am »

Please Steve F., leave Roger M. out if it. The OP here asked about fuses in Magnepan speakers only. He wants to know what others have found in using boutique fuses, and isn't this the idea on these forums---to share knowledge and personal experience? I made the mistake of chiming in on that Roger M. thread about the folly of these fuses--I said the same thing I just posted here. Roger replied that he was not surprised I heard an improvement in this particular application of fuses to Maggies. He knew of Maggie owners' habits of getting rid of the fuses and apparently could understand the benefit of a better fuse in this direct pathway.
Steve Ford, thanks for offering to run a trial of some of these fuses. After you try them out for yourself, you will have your own opinion, based on your experience.
Some folks here think it's their duty to tell others they are not really hearing what they are hearing, that their experience has to be false. These are people who usually have not tried the product, at least not in Magnepans, but they sure have an opinion--not their own, though.

SteveFord · « **Reply #34 on:** 13 Jul 2015, 12:32 am »

Awkshully, at the end of the tour I'm thinking Karma offering.
These are only fuses, we're not talking a cure for cancer so it's not worth getting all worked up about.
It should be fun.

Davey · « **Reply #35 on:** 13 Jul 2015, 01:03 am »

Send the fuses to me last and I'll test them.....objectively.

Dave.

steve f · « **Reply #36 on:** 13 Jul 2015, 02:18 am »

I just want someone to actually measure when a boutique fuse opens, and perhaps test a little-fuse of the same value for comparison. I mentioned Roger because I trust him.
Does anyone know of anyone who has measured them?

Steve

kevin360 · « **Reply #37 on:** 13 Jul 2015, 05:12 am »

Quote from: steve f on 13 Jul 2015, 02:18 am

...and perhaps test a little-fuse of the same value for comparison.

That'll be a neat trick. What boutique fuse manufacturer actually publishes a proper spec sheet for their products? I know of at least one such manufacturer that states all of their fuses are slow-blow for the best audio quality, which renders them ineffective in most applications. I did contact the manufacturer of the HiFi Tuning fuses with a request for such metrics as the I2t rating (melting and clearing) and I received no response. I find it funny that they publish lots of data about how the fuse operates as a wire, but nothing about its behavior as a protection device.

I'm with 'raindance' in the fourth comment in this thread. Forget the fancy fuses and just bypass them altogether. It will cost nothing and provide precisely the same level of protection for one's drivers - none at all, but at least the latter won't impart a false sense of security. Even better, bypassing the fuse by relocating a wire also eliminates the fuse holder, and no fuse is better (soundwise) than no fuse at all.

SteveFord · « **Reply #38 on:** 16 Jul 2015, 11:52 pm »

The Great Fuse Shoot Out/Demolition Derby is temporarily being placed on hold.
I'm in the process of getting my old VTL 300 deLuxes back (YAY!!!) and that takes precedence over designer fuses.
I really miss tube amps with the 1.7s, that's a magical combination.

SteveFord · « **Reply #39 on:** 20 Jul 2015, 08:50 pm »

Only $900 away from getting my old VTLs back and then we can see if there's any differences in the way fuses sound and then (probably) see exactly how much protection they offer.
Sinus surgery slated for 8/18 so this may be an early Fall road show. Right sinus is royally screwed.