[rollo]

Do you favor the tax breaks that the oil industry reaps? Some of the tax subsidies are  intangible drilling costs, tangible drilling costs (100% deduction), depletion allowance (15% off the gross), lease costs (100%) and others. Also the oil extraction industry tend to leave big messes everywhere which are often left for others to clean up, i.e., privatize profits, socialize costs.

   Two wrongs do not make it right. Socialize ?? I do not favor tax breaks for anyone except those who earn less than 25k. No breaks no loop holes nada. just a fair flat. tax about 15%.
    Redistribution of my wealth is not my idea of freedom. Sorry if you disagree but accusing me of supporting big oil because I dot like what you do is not right either.

charles

[a.wayne]

Nothing is free, as soon as enough people get on solar and the solar push Washington vig is paid,  Everyone will be right back to national level of pay, no free ride..

Everyone pays ....



Regards..

[macrojack]

Nothing is free, as soon as enough people get on solar and the solar push Washington vig is paid,  Everyone will be right back to national level of pay, no free ride..

Everyone pays ....





Regards..

Where do you see a free ride? I bought equipment to save myself money long term and spent over $12,000 doing it. Some of the comments here are unbelievable.

[rollo]

Where do you see a free ride? I bought equipment to save myself money long term and spent over $12,000 doing it. Some of the comments here are unbelievable.

   Yes they are. Good move Macrojack. The idea of a intergrated is growing on me as well. liking the Peachtree components lately. Enjoy.


charles

[Phil A]

   Two wrongs do not make it right. Socialize ?? I do not favor tax breaks for anyone except those who earn less than 25k. No breaks no loop holes nada. just a fair flat. tax about 15%.
    Redistribution of my wealth is not my idea of freedom. Sorry if you disagree but accusing me of supporting big oil because I dot like what you do is not right either.

charles

Charles - did not look at the original comment but a flat tax FYI (and I did taxes for 35 years) FYI is the most regressive kind of tax (and that's my only point).  For example, if you go out and buy a $20,000 car and whether you make $50k or $150k you pay the same sales tax.  That is an extreme example of a flat tax.  It is likely if there was a single flat tax on income it would be higher than 15% (to fund everything without drastic cuts) and would re-distribute wealth to the people at the top end.  The (very) old days of high tax rates were not good either (the UK had an extreme issue with that with wealthy people leaving).  Tax favors are just the norm.  In some states with lots of manufacturing facilities there are sales tax exemptions for manufacturing equipment, in same with lots of farming there are reduced rates or exemptions for farm equipment. In Arkansas, a blind veteran can buy a new car (not a used one) every two years without paying sales tax.  While consumers get a break from solar credits, the purpose was of course to spur sales for the companies that make equipment.  If the credit goes away, there won't be as many people doing it and there will be less sales of course.

[rajacat]

   Two wrongs do not make it right. Socialize ?? I do not favor tax breaks for anyone except those who earn less than 25k. No breaks no loop holes nada. just a fair flat. tax about 15%.
    Redistribution of my wealth is not my idea of freedom. Sorry if you disagree but accusing me of supporting big oil because I dot like what you do is not right either.

charles

Sorry if I made an assumption about you that's not accurate. IMO the flat tax wouldn't be fair or effective.

[Phil A]

Not to get off the topic of solar but there are people who are not wealthy - e.g. perhaps they make $35k and with exemptions/deductions depending on where they live they may be barely getting by.  Even at 15% they may go from paying nothing to more than $5k and it may cost them to lose assets.  People make $350,000 would get a tax cut under such a scheme.  There are no easy answers as we have a complex Federal Tax Code in addition to states which have there own sources of revenue.  There are even home rule cities in some states with their own administered taxes.  It's a mess - maybe we can just get back to solar.

[macrojack]

Not to get off the topic of solar but there are people who are not wealthy - e.g. perhaps they make $35k and with exemptions/deductions depending on where they live they may be barely getting by.  Even at 15% they may go from paying nothing to more than $5k and it may cost them to lose assets.  People make $350,000 would get a tax cut under such a scheme.  There are no easy answers as we have a complex Federal Tax Code in addition to states which have there own sources of revenue.  There are even home rule cities in some states with their own administered taxes.  It's a mess - maybe we can just get back to solar.

yeah ....... maybe.

I sent a joke to a number of people earlier today. One of them was the guy who installed my PV system. I asked if he was busy and found out that he has a couple of out of town jobs coming up. Now here's the story:

There is a project pending in Stoner, Colorado. I had never heard of that place but there are a gazillion little towns and areas around the state too small to be known outside of a close radius. Turns out I never heard of this one because it just came into existence. Here is Craig's answer when I asked where it was:

Between Rico and Cortez, or thereabouts. It's not much of a town, 6 acres, but a guy named Frank bought it and wants to definitely play up the whole pot aspect for marketing, holding music festivals, etc., AND there is apparently a reality TV show of some sort in the works. Tommy Chong has apparently signed on to be the Chief of Police of Stoner, CO... (I'm not making this up)

I wish the guy well. Despite whatever crazy nonsense you may have heard about the subject, the cartels have not moved in. As a matter of fact, I can't say I've noticed any difference at all since pot was legalized. I hear there are a bazillion pot stores in Denver but the rednecks in my part of the state refuse to allow retail sales so everybody drives to towns that do sell it or buys on the black market. I think there would be zero problems if it were priced lower and widely available.

How's that for sticking to the topic?

[Phil A]

Of course the tax credits were what prompted me to get pricing on it when the house was going up.  I basically worked that whole year and then about 15% of the following year before retiring for the second (and hopefully last) time.  It just did not make economic sense without it.  The Bloom Energy units I talked about previously which I indicated their goal was to have a $3k unit and two of those would power the average US house.  However, it was my understanding that if they would do it now it would be $75k/unit or $150k for the average house and obviously except for commercial or mega mansion purposes not something that makes economic sense.  It's just the way it is.  It is no different for me when I do an audio upgrade or buy something else.  Economics plays into it.

[JLM]

The 30% tax credit offsets the cost to build/replace power plants, that ultimately the public pays for.  Utilities don't like dealing with thousands of small generators that tie into the grid or losing our total dependency on them.

Of course solar/wind sourced power generates zero pollution compared to fossil generated, regardless of the percentage of transmission losses.  Solar/wind also eliminates the environmental impacts from extracting, refining, and transporting the fossil fuel as well as transmission impacts.  Our house has lots of open space to the south/west, so both solar and wind are candidates.  But when I looked into wind power, it would have been a 30 year payback and only cover 1/3rd of our annual electrical demand (about 6,500 kWh for the two of us).

Unfortunately solar/wind isn't the total answer (without affordable power storage solutions).  Most population centers aren't near high wind areas or where large/unobstructed/sunny spaces are available.  And those transmission losses affect any centralized power sources, including solar/wind.

[a.wayne]

Where do you see a free ride? I bought equipment to save myself money long term and spent over $12,000 doing it. Some of the comments here are unbelievable.

I didn't insinuate you got yours free, of course you had to pay for it , but Did you or the solar  company not get tax credits to offset the cost , why did you buy ? Wasn't this to save $$$ on your energy cost in the future ?

Some get into solar to get off the grid and be totally independent, when enough households are doing such  there will be fees and taxes to compensate , monthly cost will be similar to those operating  from the grid.... 

Windfarming is net loss , looked  into it a decade ago it only makes sense when tax dollars offset cost and you sell and cash out up front .  Oil is still the Cheapest  way to produce electricity And will remain so for decades. Remote setups is where wind/solar make sense , do it because you want clean power or to feel good about   Coming off the grid , not to save dollars.... 


Countries with excessive energy cost are the exceptions ....

[MtnHam]

Some get into solar to get off the grid and be totally independent,....

Very few! Being "off the grid" only makes sense if you already are already off the grid and can't cheaply get on. Otherwise, you need to invest in storage too! Storage has a limited life, needs to be amortized, and then there is battery maintenance! It makes sense to let the grid be your battery bank.

[Phil A]

My solar requires I'm on the grid (needs juice to run).  I have a bi-directional meter the electric company installed so it registers what I generate.  I just paid my monthly bill the other day and it was $39.46.  If I turned off the pool pump, which runs about 7 hours it would likely be about break even.  I did it for multiple purposes - firstly to save money over time (and have controlled costs in retirement) and secondly to be green.  House has gas too - stove, outdoor kitchen grill and the pool/spa heater (I don't heat the pool but will use the spa a couple of times a month and heat it as needed- if I need a heated pool when it is too cool out, the community does have a pool and it doesn't have tons of users compared to past community pools where I've lived).  The water heater is solar with electric back-up.  Last year the next four months were the cheapest as they included excess generated and the bills ranged from just over 8 to just more than 12 dollars.  I also put in 300 amp electric service (50 of that is for the main audio system on 3 circuits - one 20 amp) and I have a generator panel and for now I have a portable gasoline generator which probably can do most things except the air conditioning so I'll have the fridge, lights and fans.

[rajacat]

I didn't insinuate you got yours free, of course you had to pay for it , but Did you or the solar  company not get tax credits to offset the cost , why did you buy ? Wasn't this to save $$$ on your energy cost in the future ?

Some get into solar to get off the grid and be totally independent, when enough households are doing such  there will be fees and taxes to compensate , montly cost will be similar to those operating  from the grid.... 

Windfarming is net loss , looked  into it a decade ago it only makes sense when tax collars offset cost and you sell and cash out up front .  Oil is still the Cheapest  way to produce electricity And will remain so for decades.
Remote setups is where wind/solar make sense , do it because you want clean power or to feel good about   Coming off the grid , not to save dollars.... 

Countries with excessive energy cost are the exceptions ....

You like those big oil tax subsidies, eh ? Oil isn't the cheapest way to produce electricity because we aren't charged the real costs at the pump. We need to raise gas taxes now.The indirect costs are picked up by other areas in the economy like health care, pollution, environmental degradation and forwarding costs to future generations

The US should follow the German model.
http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-08-14/germany-reaches-new-levels-of-greendom-gets-31-percent-of-its-electricity-from-renewables

[macrojack]

Best to ignore the ignorant. Those who want to learn can ask questions of those of us who have knowledge and/or experience.

Those who wish to spread misinformation and tempt us into political discussion serve no useful purpose in this discussion and should receive no response whatsoever.

Not everyone has circumstances which make solar electric self-sufficiency a possibility. Those who do, may find our conversation here informative or inspiring.

My personal opinion is that we Americans are energy gluttons. Our consumption per capita is many times that of any other country in the world. We are not the world's largest polluter, however, because China has a more primitive infrastructure, no regulation and a billion more people. That does not excuse our wastefulness. We owe it to ourselves and everything else living on earth to maintain the planets viability as a support system for life as we know it. America came into existence as a vast uncharted expanse of virgin landscape with seemingly endless natural resources. By engaging slave labor and exploiting new immigrants, we gave ourselves an economic edge over all other countries. Now we still operate with the mindset of endless natural resources and room to toss our garbage. But those conditions no longer exist - not that they ever really did. We can no longer afford to ignore the consequences of our lifestyle choices. We must, if we are not willing to make this planet uninhabitable, begin making personal decisions about how we choose to live and what we are willing to throw overboard in the interest of saving the ship.

I'm willing to jettison golf courses since they are a terrible waste of space, water, and time. They also add a tremendous amount of detrimental chemicals to our ecosystem for no other reason than to entertain the rich and those who wish to feel that way. Since I don't play golf, that idea leaps to the forefront of my list of possible expendables. Many of you probably feel that life without golf would not be worth living. I, on the other hand, can't see any justification for despoiling our beautiful natural landscapes with thousands of drilling rigs. But surely many of you will conclude from that statement that I don't want heat and light in my home. That, of course, is not true but I feel certain that the whole exploration and extraction process could be modified to reduce, if not eliminate the destruction presently incurred. Further, I feel that we are being deceived on many counts about our energy needs. America has for several years been producing more oil here than we actually use. Our petroleum exports in fact, exceed our importation. That means simply that, if we stopped exporting the stuff, we would not need to import any. Kaboom!!!

So, that's why I drive a Prius only 4000 miles a year and put solar panels on my roof and line dry the laundry (weather permitting) and spent $200 last month on LED bulbs and don't have refrigerated air conditioning and so on. It's not because I'm vying for sainthood but because I want to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem. The reason I'm sharing this info is to bring others into a mindset of minimal carbon footprint. Maybe we need to change our habits a bit. Maybe we can give up some comforts that are hard to justify. Maybe common sense could become the latest craze in America. Maybe green can be fashionable. Maybe you will discover something through your creativity that brings us all around to better living and healthier behavior. Maybe we can slow this disaster down enough to make recovery possible. A lot of very knowledgeable people think we have passed the tipping point where nothing can be done to reverse this tragedy fast enough to save us. We may already have made our planet uninhabitable to the point where we are just waiting for the bullet to arrive. I hope not with all my heart. Can you help? Will you help? Please don't just roll over and die. Fight back - it's your last chance.

[Guy 13]

Hi macrojack, 
thanks for your very well written write-up.
 
I sure don't want to be consider/looked at as an eco hero
but here on planet Vietnam is what I do
to do my part in the carbon footprint reduction:
(I know not much, but still.)
I drive a 110cc fuel injection motorcycle.
We have a solar water heater for us and the in-laws, total six persons.
Yes, we have air conditioning, but only use the one in the bedroom
at night when the temperature is too hot to sleep and we set it at 28C,
the other AC is for my office and use it when outside temperature is 35C+,
my office is on the fourth floor, so a lot of fresh air.
Of course with 30-35C almost all year round,
clothing is air dried and with in 2 hours is ready to wear.
My wife iron her clothing, but I only iron my office shirt and pants,
all my other clothing get their wrinkle iron out by wearing them. 
Yes, not much, but better than nothing.

Guy 13

After reading all the posts posted before and after mine,
I think I am completely off topic with my post about making a smaller carbon footprint with my motorcycle and solar water heater.
Anyway.
The solar water heater cost us 850 USD (Parts and labor)
and the electricity cost 0.11 USD/Kw
I don't know how to calculate how long it will take
for the payback, but sure look like it will take several years.
Anyway, the solar water heater was part of the price of the house.
 
 

[a.wayne]

Very few! Being "off the grid" only makes sense if you already are already off the grid and can't cheaply get on. Otherwise, you need to invest in storage too! Storage has a limited life, needs to be amortized, and then there is battery maintenance! It makes sense to let the grid be your battery bank.

Correct , i was referencing other countries where getting off the grid is common and legal it is not legal here in the states to do so .... 



Regards

[macrojack]

Correct , i was referencing other countries where getting off the grid is common and legal it is not legal here in the states to do so .... 



Regards

Where in god's name do you get your information? There are mansions in the Colorado mountains that are 9000 square feet and operate completely off the grid. More common, of course, are home made structures which operate without external power sources. It is not illegal in the U.S. Where are you?

[kingdeezie]

The problem for me at this point, is still cost. I think solar is a great idea. I have never looked into panels for my own home, but people that live in my area that I know have paid 25-30K for installation of solar panels.

Combine that with the fact that I would need to replace my roof at the same time (its 15 years old or so), and I am looking at 40-50K to add solar panels to my home.

I don't think I would ever see a return on investment that would be worth it economically. My average electic bill is 250 dollars a month. Assuming I completely eliminated my electric bill, and it cost me 40K to install the panels and roof, it would take me 13.5 years to recoup my investment.

Assuming 25 years maintenance free service, I would have made 35K. Just enough to replace the roof and panels again.

I like the way Phil had the panels integrate with the roof, that is pretty smart. I am wondering as the technology advances, if that would become something that is more prevelant.

Assuming there comes a time when I could replace my roof with solar panels for 20K, well then, that's a no brainer.

[a.wayne]

Yes  best to avoid  the ignorant , the irony is astonishing ..



You want to check the carbonfoot ( oil is used in manufacturering everything ) print on that prius and batterywaste In manufacturing, instead you prefer to throw around  your silly dogma , you should get out  of your little town once in awhile, ever did a little windfarming , sold or installed solar , you sound knowledgable, i guess  because you bought 12K worth of solar and drive a prius you now know whats best for the rest of us yep, best to jettison those golf courses  and other american waste you don't use.....


Save us MacroJack ......





Why  should anyone have any input when we can listen to your  silly monologic ...