[htradtk]

OK, with all of this talk of image height, here's my question: Do the speakers "disappear" in the soundstage?

Henry

[Mountainjoe]

OK, with all of this talk of image height, here's my question: Do the speakers "disappear" in the soundstage?

Henry

Hi Henry - yes, they do a very convincing disappearing act 

When I spoke of organic sound earlier in this thread, that was to say they convey a very natural sonic and spatial presentation to the point where they not only disappear sonically, but it also feels like hearing the music live. Perhaps that's an artificial distinction but one that struck me when listening to these speakers.

As an example, I was listening to Simon & Garfunkel "The Concert in Central Park" live album last night and the noise & clapping from the crowd stretching out far beyond the stage gave an amazing sense of depth and realism. I've rarely experienced this vast sense of depth into the soundstage before - the height also came into play as I could tell the crowd extended outwards from below the stage so image height was not a problem for me

Cheers, Joe

[htradtk]

Thanks Joe,

How's the breakin in coming along? That S&G is a great one and I'm sure many live recordings sound like you are right in the crowd! I recommend you check out David Arkenstone, he's more of a new age artist. My favorite is "In the wake of the wind" released in 1991. Take care,

Henry

[Mountainjoe]

Thanks Joe,

How's the breakin in coming along? That S&G is a great one and I'm sure many live recordings sound like you are right in the crowd! I recommend you check out David Arkenstone, he's more of a new age artist. My favorite is "In the wake of the wind" released in 1991. Take care,

Henry

Hi Henry - thanks for the recommendation - I'll check him out!

Cheers, Joe

[Mountainjoe]

Playing around with some photos - closeup of tweeter and midrange driver:

[gammajo]

Nice!

[htradtk]

Joe, Great close-up shot! Like the individual grills! Getting me thinking!

[htradtk]

Albert and his team really do some great craftsmenship!

[Mountainjoe]

Albert and his team really do some great craftsmenship!

About a year ago Devon (Albert's grandson) delivered my upgraded VR44s and we thought we had an issue with the woofers on one speaker (turned out to be a bad tube in my phono stage) so he opened up the panel on the back where the speaker terminals are located. Upon putting things back together, I noted he was careful to set all the square head screws in the same vertical orientation - that's attention to detail!

So when I took these photos, I noted the square heads are not all aligned vertically and was disappointed until I realized, they are all aligned to be tangential to the circular mount of the driver - well done Albert!

Working as an engineer at Apple, I appreciate this level of craftsmanship and attention to detail 

Here's a closeup of a woofer that shows this detail:



I also like the concave grills over the drivers - very cool design imo.



I should mention if you haven't met him, Devon is a delightful young man and a pleasure to work with.

Cheers, Joe

[JackD201]

Fun Fact:

Some people might say "yeah it's cool that the screws are oriented that way but what about uniform torque?". Well, , The drivers are actually mounted using a clay like damping material and the screws aren't what hold the drivers in place and secure at all. 

[Mountainjoe]

Put some more hours on the VR55s and things are really starting to gel - the sound is immersive - natural, balanced, and accurate though never analytical.

Transients are handled with aplomb - I would really be interested in seeing a spectral decay plot for these speakers - my guess is they would measure very well across the spectrum

Imaging just seems to be getting better every listening session and the combination of these speakers and my VTL amps are a match made in audiophile heaven - spacious, airy, completely lacking in grain or edginess.

Now back to some Neil Young - can't get enough of this sound

[skolis]

So.... after another 5 days, how they sound?

Another question please:

The reco power for these from VSA site:    REC. POWER: 20-200watts (Aktive) 100-500watts (Passive)

Your equip profile shows : VTL MB450III monoblocks  which have more power than the upper end of the Aktive's.

How's that work? 

[Mountainjoe]

So.... after another 5 days, how they sound?

Another question please:

The reco power for these from VSA site:    REC. POWER: 20-200watts (Aktive) 100-500watts (Passive)

Your equip profile shows : VTL MB450III monoblocks  which have more power than the upper end of the Aktive's.

How's that work?

Yeah, prior to delivery of the speakers I was debating downsizing my amps and spoke to Albert to get his opinion. He didn't think it would be an issue and frankly I don't crank up the volume to "11" so don't expect there's a chance of damaging the speakers.

In fact, he thinks this is a fine combination and after some time breaking things in, I have to agree - the combination works really well

Also, I'm guessing the extra headroom allows me to dial back the feedback on the amps to the minimum setting which allows the amps to perform at their best.

All that said, I would like to try out the VTL MB185's as they are more in the recommended range of power and use EL34 tubes which should do nicely in the mids and not suffer from trying to drive the bass - this may be the killer combo for these speakers. Problem is finding someone that carries these and will let me audition them - I might reach out directly to Luke Manley who lives not too far from me...

After several more days of breaking in, things continue to improve though in subtle ways. I have a few new tubes breaking in at the same time so hard to say if it's all coming from the speakers but the forward sound of the speakers is starting to mellow (not at the cost of dynamics though) and the main improvements I hear are in the upper mids and highs - sweeter, more extended, and very smooth.

Playback of female vocals on vinyl is spot on tonally, and smooooth! Resolution/detail seems to be improving as well - I hear this on well recorded vocals were the placement of the mic and the sense of space becomes really evident. It's hard to describe but I've heard vocals where I swear I can resolve the spatial pattern of the mic being used - sort of a bubble around the voice. Perhaps this is not unusual of high end speakers but I've rarely experienced this before in my own setups.

I do think there's some resolution being left on the table, so to speak, as the VTLs aren't the ultimate in that regard - but as far as being sonically convincing and emotionally connecting you to the music, they're hard to beat!

Looking forward to the M-B Ultra speaker cables as I think these will move my setup up a notch in regards to low level resolution and soundstage (according to what Albert's been telling me).

Cheers, Joe

[kernelbob]

Hi Joe,

Regarding power ratings, I wouldn't make amp changes just to match the suggested wattage range.  If the amp isn't driven into distortion, the higher wattage capacity just means you'll have more unlimited transients, all else being equal.

Since the signal to the speaker's built in bass amp is coming from your main amp, you'll want to look for an amp that excels at the whole frequency range.  That includes the very deep bass frequencies, just in case you eventually want to add a VSA subwoofer.  Since getting the XS subwoofers with my 100's, I've become a convert to the benefits to be had with well designed and integrated subwoofers, particularly when installed at the rear of the room and the phase dialed in.

I think you'll be amazed what the Ultra cabling will do for your system.  I expect that "moving it up a notch" will prove to be quite an understatement!  Keep us posted.

Best,
Robert

[Mountainjoe]

Hi Joe,

Regarding power ratings, I wouldn't make amp changes just to match the suggested wattage range.  If the amp isn't driven into distortion, the higher wattage capacity just means you'll have more unlimited transients, all else being equal.

Since the signal to the speaker's built in bass amp is coming from your main amp, you'll want to look for an amp that excels at the whole frequency range.  That includes the very deep bass frequencies, just in case you eventually want to add a VSA subwoofer.  Since getting the XS subwoofers with my 100's, I've become a convert to the benefits to be had with well designed and integrated subwoofers, particularly when installed at the rear of the room and the phase dialed in.

I think you'll be amazed what the Ultra cabling will do for your system.  I expect that "moving it up a notch" will prove to be quite an understatement!  Keep us posted.

Best,
Robert

Hi Robert - thanks for the comments.

Regarding the bass - you are correct that the main amps need the frequency response to drive the bass amps but it's also about the load at these frequencies - I'm guessing with the Aktives, the load on the main amps in the bass region is reduced and this should help with the frequency response. There's also the gain adjustment which can help overcome some rolloff in this region.

I'm really intrigued with the VSA subwoofers - I have some difficult room response issues in the bass region (deep suckout at ~46Hz and large peaking around 60Hz) and my wife doesn't like any of the room treatments I've shown her 

Do these help overcome room modes and reflections in the bass region? I could see where with a phase adjustment might help the latter but I suspect only room treatments will deal with the modes...

Regarding the Ultra cables, I'm really anxious to see what they do in my system!

Cheers, Joe

[kernelbob]

Hi Joe,

If you're having room response issues with bass peaks/dips, the VSA subwoofers are exactly what you need.  I'm using a pair of the XS 15" subwoofers at the rear of my listening room and they do three things.  1) they neutralize the room bass nodes.  2) extend the bass to around 10 Hz or lower.  3) they extend the soundstage into and through the room.  Before having the subs, the soudstage was of course tall, wide, and deep as you'd expect from any VSA system, but when the subs are engaged the soundstage includes your listening room.

Best,
Robert

[Mountainjoe]

Hi Joe,

If you're having room response issues with bass peaks/dips, the VSA subwoofers are exactly what you need.  I'm using a pair of the XS 15" subwoofers at the rear of my listening room and they do three things.  1) they neutralize the room bass nodes.  2) extend the bass to around 10 Hz or lower.  3) they extend the soundstage into and through the room.  Before having the subs, the soudstage was of course tall, wide, and deep as you'd expect from any VSA system, but when the subs are engaged the soundstage includes your listening room.

Best,
Robert

Great - now I only have to convince my wife! 

[kernelbob]

Hi Joe,

One thing I forgot to mention is that I only use three double stacked GIK sound diffuser panels per side on the side walls at the first reflection points of the 100's towers.  That eliminates coherent reflections.  Those are the only sound treatment devices I use in my system.  Getting the rear subs should avoid the need to redecorate your room with audio panels, bass traps, etc. in an effort to control those bass nodes.  You'll also get some of the most immersive sound you could want without adding all the complexity and cost of a surround system of similar component quality.  I thought these might be good selling points when the time comes.

Robert

[Mountainjoe]

Hi Joe,

One thing I forgot to mention is that I only use three double stacked GIK sound diffuser panels per side on the side walls at the first reflection points of the 100's towers.  That eliminates coherent reflections.  Those are the only sound treatment devices I use in my system.  Getting the rear subs should avoid the need to redecorate your room with audio panels, bass traps, etc. in an effort to control those bass nodes.  You'll also get some of the most immersive sound you could want without adding all the complexity and cost of a surround system of similar component quality.  I thought these might be good selling points when the time comes.

Robert

Hi Robert - sounds like you are using two of the subs? And do you have them even with your listening position or further back behind you? Sounds really interesting - I'll have to discuss with Albert.

Thanks, Joe

[kernelbob]

Hi Joe,

The front baffles of the 100's towers are about 6 feet from the front wall.  My listening position is about 17 to 18 feet from the front of the towers.  The fronts of the two XS-15 subwoofers, facing forward, are about 44 feet from the front of the towers, 50 feet from the front wall.  The back of the room extends another 20 feet for a total front to back length of 70 feet.  The room is around 21 feet wide with 9-1/2 to 10-1/2 foot ceilings.  One more thing, there's a stairwell right behind the listening position that leads down.  That seems to help break up the uniform floor to ceiling dimension.

The subwoofers work their magic the best when positioned at the rear of the listening room.  I have the level control at around 70% to 80% of the maximum level.  The low pass frequency is set to around 55 Hz or so with the 25 Hz boost switch off.  Most importantly, the phase rotation setting works best in my room between about 155 to 165 degrees.

The sense cables that Albert supplied are each 100 feet long which makes it easy to route them together on one side of the room from the front to the rear.  I use thin decorative cable covers from Amazon that are the same color as the hardwood floor to tend enclose and protect the sense cables.

Hope this helps,
Robert