[stvnharr]

Firstly I don't think you can make a comparison between a concert hall and the home listening environment. A concert hall is so much bigger and many of the problems of reproducing sound in a small room don't occur.

The way I would set up speakers and chair now .........

My point with the concert hall, or any venue for that matter, was only that the sound stays stable and doesn't move around with you when you move. I think that is worth striving for in home listening, and is doable.

So, is the method you describe how you do it?

[Devil Doc]

You go to war with the room you have, not the room you wish you had. Or something like that.

Doc

[gregfisk]

My point with the concert hall, or any venue for that matter, was only that the sound stays stable and doesn't move around with you when you move. I think that is worth striving for in home listening, and is doable.

So, is the method you describe how you do it?

I have heard big differences moving around concert halls on many occasions but I concur that it isn't the same as a listening room at all. I wonder if at a large concert if they are even playing in stereo as you can't really hear where the instruments are coming from. Of course in a very small venue without or with very little amplification it's wonderful.

Outside I have noticed huge differences in sound depending on where I am and I strive to find the best spot, I think in a home audio room having a good since of where the instruments are and hearing the music in stereo is at least for me an important goal.

[bladesmith]

Not trying to derail this thread. But, I have never heard anyone talk much about the atmospheric pressure levels.

I know that before a storm or after it, your speakers can sound different,  not sure if the pressure is effecting your head/ears or the movement of the drivers. I do know that birds will congregate in trees/powerlines, because the change in pressure levels, makes it difficult for them to fly.

That being said, you might have to give your changes some time, listen to them, and make changes with patience.

(ps: I'm not crazy, trust me.  )

[stvnharr]

I wonder if at a large concert if they are even playing in stereo as you can't really hear where the instruments are coming from.

Yes, at a large concert it often is just one big mass of sound.

Only in audio playback, home or venue sound system, is sound heard in stereo, as a sum of two sound sources. An acoustic concert without amplification is just a number of single sound sources, up to 80 or 100 for a large orchestra. Venue sound systems are another world as there are thousands of venues, all different. Concert sound systems are balanced on a large console so that the instruments sound as a single source through the speakers. Unless one sits up close to one of the venue speakers where the sound is so loud as to drown out everything else, the sound in the venue should sound good and balanced most anywhere in the venue.

The difficulty in home audio playback is to have the two sound sources(the speakers) become as a single sound source. One can go the DSP route, like say DEQX, quite expensive but very good, or just position the speakers to get the proper balance. And the most important part of this is the positioning of the speakers in relation to each other. It's the XY variable I wrote about earlier and you need to make the "X" speaker non variable so that only the "Y" speaker is variable. And the you try to get them equal so that the sound is balanced from most places in the room. It's tricky and not easy to do.
A good way to think of it is using focusing of binoculars as a guide. This is also and XY variable. You set the "X" lens, the non variable Left lens, for perfect focus, and then rotate the variable ring on the "Y" lens, the right one. Of course the first step here is adjusting the lenses to the width of one's eyes, usually the hardest part to get right. The rest is straight forward.
But no matter how one does it, the idea is to get the two speakers to seem as one sound source from most anywhere in the room, if possible.

[JLM]

The concert hall is part of the sonic experience, your room should not be. 

OTOH we are very adept of "listening through" typical residential rooms.  So it's best to avoid extremes (tons of treatments, glass, odd shapes, huge/tiny sizes).  If possible keep speakers/listening position at least 7 feet from walls/ceilings to avoid first reflections within 11 milliseconds of the direct signal path that can confuse the ear.  And if possible avoid non-rectangular shaped rooms (which aren't the best but are well understood).

20+ years ago had the chance to setup my system in a 20,000 cubic foot (160 seat) chapel.  The fairly large speakers overpowered my house, but with just my NAD 3020 the sound was profoundly glorious, the best sound reproduction I've ever heard, period.

[jimtranr]

What I always try to keep in mind is that the recording is itself an artistic creation, typically the product of a collaboration between producer, engineer, and artist(s). So what we're attempting to replicate in a listening session is their vision of the recording's "aural/visual" perspective, be it first- or tenth-row concert hall, jazz club, Fillmore West, dry-as-dust studio, or pan-pot ping-pong table. That vision may or may not incorporate what we deem to be spatial reality (or concert-hall homogeneity) in the mix--"Dark Side of the Moon," anyone?

I agree with JLM that the listening room should not be part of the sonic experience, but I demur (with a big  ) about our adeptness in "listening through" typical residential rooms--assuming that there are residential rooms that can be termed "typical".  Some--based on size, dimensional ratios, design asymmetries, extensive areas of immovable reflective mass, inflexible furniture placement, perhaps all of the above (not "perhaps" here)--are downright hostile to what we might term "good sound", especially if the space is shared with someone else. So "extremes" of remediation may be unavoidable if no alternative space is available. In my case, extensive (though it doesn't tip the scales at tons) room treatment allows me (and my spouse, even though she typically sits well off the optimum listening axis) to a large degree to not have to "listen through" the room to get a much better approximation of what the artist-producer-engineer team intended.         

[stvnharr]

Well, I rather like having the room as part of the listening experience. I like sitting in my listening room and listening to music. It's relaxing and enjoyable. I don't know anything about "listening through" or pretending the room is not there when I am sitting in it listening to music. I don't know anything about ideal rooms either. Most of us just have what we have. Most of my listening rooms have been on the small side and no matter how things are set up, it's a nearfield listening experience.
I like setting up along the long wall, which almost automatically gets the speakers far enough away from the sidewalls to mitigate the reflections. This also makes the listening pretty much in the nearfield and I'm comfortable with that.
 

[JLM]

Sorry jimtranr if I painted with too wide of brushstrokes on the "typical" room comments, but researchers (including Floyd E. Toole) have shown we are highly accustomed (dare I say "conditioned") to correctly interpret what we hear in most residential spaces.  So my point is that obsessive audiophiles IMO are apt to over do treatments (just look through this circle).  OTOH many (who don't show up here) believe inch thick open cell foam actually helps. 

Along those lines we've all seen others way over invest in gear for the given space (including at audio shops or shows  ).  And yes, sharing the space can be a killer just in terms of listening to what, when, and how loud you want.  Those folks should really consider headphones (I did in college).


stvnharr, you're right small rooms (like most recording/mixing/broadcast studios) mean near field listening by default, but setting up in a small room on narrow/versus wide wall is only a trade off of first/back wall reflections (side versus front/back walls) and wide wall setup means back wall bass reinforcement when you sit close by.  Have you tried a skewed/non-symetrically angled layout in your smaller room?  I tried it in a plaster/wood floor 12 ft x 19 ft room and thought it helped.

[stvnharr]

stvnharr, you're right small rooms (like most recording/mixing/broadcast studios) mean near field listening by default, but setting up in a small room on narrow/versus wide wall is only a trade off of first/back wall reflections (side versus front/back walls) and wide wall setup means back wall bass reinforcement when you sit close by.  Have you tried a skewed/non-symetrically angled layout in your smaller room?  I tried it in a plaster/wood floor 12 ft x 19 ft room and thought it helped.

As to your question above, the answer is no, and it's not even a thought.
I've been doing long wall set ups for a long time now and find this to be the best way. Of course if a room is large enough it doesn't matter. What does matter is being away from the side walls while also having the speakers spaced reasonably wide apart.

Spacing the speakers wide apart helps keep the left and right separate. When the speakers are too close together there is a lot of sound overlap in the middle. A good way to do this is to play a mono disc and slowly move the speakers apart until the solid mono image breaks up a bit. And then move the speakers back together a it to restore the solid image. Of course you can do this if the room is wide enough to not get too close to the sidewalls.

[jimtranr]

Sorry jimtranr if I painted with too wide of brushstrokes on the "typical" room comments, but researchers (including Floyd E. Toole) have shown we are highly accustomed (dare I say "conditioned") to correctly interpret what we hear in most residential spaces.  So my point is that obsessive audiophiles IMO are apt to over do treatments (just look through this circle).  OTOH many (who don't show up here) believe inch thick open cell foam actually helps.

The ability to "correctly interpret" is at least a tacit assumption underlying MP3, too. This admitted obsessive (my avatar only hints at  what lurks along these walls) thinks the question boils down to how much we're willing to "interpret" vs. how much we'd like to be able to actually hear however much we can of what's embedded in a recording, given what we've spent on the gear to get us there. I'd submit that attending to at least the basics of room treatment and speaker placement (to the extent that's possible) in what we might call the "typical" residential room and hearing the results would tend to rein in the temptation to over-invest in gear or binge-upgrade every six or 12 months.             

[stvnharr]

My room is 25' x 18' with a cathedral ceiling that is 17' at the peak. I have set speakers using Cardas, the rule of thirds, master set, and Jim Smith's Get Better Sound. In the end, I found the best position by using Jim Smith's methods and then fine tuning by listening to some music I know really well. I think all of the various methods will get you close, but nothing beats that final tuning by ear.

I've not read Jim Smith's book. Briefly, how does what he recommend differ from what Rod did?

[Hipper]

Jim Smith, if I recall correctly, doesn't suggest specific positions, just a method to find them.

He suggests drawing a grid with speaker and chair positions on it, listening, moving, listening etc. marking the positions on the grid. Essentially something like I posted.

His book is full of other practical tips to 'Get Better Sound' and I recommend it.

[JLM]

Jim Smith, if I recall correctly, doesn't suggest specific positions, just a method to find them.

He suggests drawing a grid with speaker and chair positions on it, listening, moving, listening etc. marking the positions on the grid. Essentially something like I posted.

His book is full of other practical tips to 'Get Better Sound' and I recommend it.

Just read the book (borrowed from a friend).  Most of it is pretty basic, but did find a few good music recommendations.  As a former Magnepan representative I can understand why he dismisses soundstage/imaging.  I don't.

[JLM]

The ability to "correctly interpret" is at least a tacit assumption underlying MP3, too. This admitted obsessive (my avatar only hints at  what lurks along these walls) thinks the question boils down to how much we're willing to "interpret" vs. how much we'd like to be able to actually hear however much we can of what's embedded in a recording, given what we've spent on the gear to get us there. I'd submit that attending to at least the basics of room treatment and speaker placement (to the extent that's possible) in what we might call the "typical" residential room and hearing the results would tend to rein in the temptation to over-invest in gear or binge-upgrade every six or 12 months.             

I think we agree far more than our posts might indicate.  With near-field setup the room has less of an effect.  But some really enjoy the hunter and trophy aspects of this pastime that no perfect room would fully address. 

[jimdgoulding]

In my avatar you can see 3 acoustic panels on the wall.  I have taken them down.  They were damping down some livelyness.  Dulling perceptible atmosphere in recordings made on locaton, for example.  You may be asking were there any consequences.  My ears don't detect any. 

[stvnharr]

Jim Smith, if I recall correctly, doesn't suggest specific positions, just a method to find them.

He suggests drawing a grid with speaker and chair positions on it, listening, moving, listening etc. marking the positions on the grid. Essentially something like I posted.

His book is full of other practical tips to 'Get Better Sound' and I recommend it.

Hi,
After posting I read a bit on the GBS website, including some of the newletter stuff, and also a thread on audiogon, and learned a bit about the grid, etc.
I was interested in what Laura did to her Sumiko setup after reading GBS, as I'm very familiar with the Sumiko method and find it to be the best way to set speakers in a room.

I liked your earlier post about actually doing something to find "the best sound".

[jimdgoulding]

One thing I don't see or read about is many folks moving their seat to or fro from the plane of their speakers depending on a recording.  It can make quite a difference in lifelikeness.

[Starchild]

my room is 16 x 14 and my speakers are on the long wall.  One thing that I've found be very important in speaker set up is the manufacturer's recommendations.  I've tried the Cardas method but found that I enjoyed variations of the Audio Physics set up method better.  I suggest you give it a shot.  There's no one size fits all set up.  It's going to vary from room to room.  I also recommend you get a copy of the xlo set up disk or something similar.  Its the bets $30 I've ever spect in audio.

http://www.stereophile.com/finetunes/179/#vZ0zGLeQ19XA7Mb8.97



http://www.audiophysic.com/aufstellung/regeln_e.html



http://www.referencerecordings.com/sample.asp

Happy listening!

[vinyl_guy]

I've not read Jim Smith's book. Briefly, how does what he recommend differ from what Rod did?

Sorry it's taken so long to respond. Since Rod set the speakers using the Master Set I have changed a good part of my front end (phono stage, pre amp, cartridge, Oppo 105 D with ModWright tube mod) and Lou updated my DA 1-1s to the version 2, all poly caps and I added the trim rings. I also added two passive subs (Daedalus BOWs). I started where Rod had the speakers and wanted a deeper soundstage so I moved them farther away from the front wall using the Rob Wasserman Duet CD until I was satisfied with the bass. I then used Jim Smith's tips and a laser measuring tool to set recommend distance between the speakers and to the listening position on my couch. Then I listened to lots of familiar music and fine tuned the location of both speakers (very small movements) until I felt like I had optimum speaker location for my room. I then added the BOWs and started with Lou's recommendation and then fine tuned their location by listening.

Jim's recommendations are measurement based with final positioning by listening.