Be prepared, be very prepared...

csero · « **on:** 21 Sep 2004, 01:31 pm »

One of the most promising - and audiophile compatible - new method of reproduction real soundstage in the listening room is finally embraced by a big corporation. Products expected by spring.

http://www.marantz.jp/he/news/press/20040917e.shtml

No affiliation with them, but heard the technology and played with it at home. It is stereo and MC compatible. If you want to hear what soundstage depth and width, realistic timbre for any instrument position is even with your old stereo records, then keep your ears open.

Frank

csero · « **Reply #1 on:** 21 Sep 2004, 01:43 pm »

A bit more about a preliminary implementation

http://watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20040917/marantz.htm

Frank

JoshK · « **Reply #2 on:** 21 Sep 2004, 01:53 pm »

Interesting. Note how they took apart the B&W 801s placing the tweeters close together, mids just further apart and the bass unit to the side.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #3 on:** 21 Sep 2004, 01:55 pm »

Thank you Frank for the info. Since Frank rarely posts....this must be something special....because he know's his stuff !! Thanks !!

csero · « **Reply #4 on:** 21 Sep 2004, 01:58 pm »

Actually sooooo... special that I took apart my horns and never looked back since.

Frank

JoshK · « **Reply #5 on:** 21 Sep 2004, 02:04 pm »

How do you implement it?

dwk · « **Reply #6 on:** 21 Sep 2004, 02:04 pm »

Interesting. Presumably this is some type of crosstalk-cancellation like Ambiophonics? Are there any more technical overviews of this approach online anywhere?

JoshK · « **Reply #7 on:** 21 Sep 2004, 02:11 pm »

The part that I love about Marantz's strategy is that they fully intend to share it even with their competition so to ensure its adoption and success. Wouldn't see Sony doing that!

My interest is piqued.

It looks like they plan to offer a 2 channel component to add to your hi-fi rig that will enable this technology. Since I use my 2 channel rig for both music and HT (no-MC HT) I am particularly interested to see how it'll work.

csero · « **Reply #8 on:** 21 Sep 2004, 02:27 pm »

Yes, it is a binaural technology with crosstalk cancellation.

The home page of the technology:

http://www.isvr.soton.ac.uk/FDAG/VAP/html/osd.html

A good short paper:
http://www.zainea.com/liviu/ARL00007.pdf

Check out especially eq (9)

The most detailed article about it is a diploma thesis:

http://iem.at/projekte/acoustic/awt/teschl/teschl

It contains detils about the implementation.
With the proper placement of the speakers crosstalk cancellation almost perfect with applying only delays and little eq in the crossfeeds. That's what I've tried and it really works. Imagine it can be way better with a Tact like transfer function inversion instead. I hope they will do something like that complete with easy to use measurements.

I think Marantz had to share, it is patented by ISVR and seems they want it to be a kind of GPL.

Frank

cryotweaks · « **Reply #9 on:** 21 Sep 2004, 03:00 pm »

Loudspeaker manufacturers are going to be pissed!

Wow, next year is really going to be interesting. With the further refinement of digital amplification, signal transmission like Sony ES's Digital Drive, and now this. Looks like 2005 will be a groundbreaking year in audio.

PhilNYC · « **Reply #10 on:** 21 Sep 2004, 03:02 pm »

Quote from: cryotweaks

Loudspeaker manufacturers are going to be pissed!.

Not as pissed as Ralph Glasgal and his ambiophonics research...he's been at it for something like 11 years, trying to come up with a consumer-implementable technology like this...

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #11 on:** 21 Sep 2004, 03:11 pm »

Quote from: PhilNYC

Quote from: cryotweaks
Loudspeaker manufacturers are going to be pissed!.

Not as pissed as Ralph Glasgal and his ambiophonics research...he's been at it for something like 11 years, trying to come up with a consumer-implementable technology like this...

Phil, I remember you posting that info (web site) awhile ago....is it still around ??

PhilNYC · « **Reply #12 on:** 21 Sep 2004, 03:13 pm »

http://www.ambiophonics.org

csero · « **Reply #13 on:** 21 Sep 2004, 03:35 pm »

Actually Mr. Glasgal never claimed that he invented anything, he just used things in the proper way. And I think he will be happy if stereo finally supersedeeded with something better. By his words - stereo is crap and MC only makes thing more problematic. IMHO this setup even helps to solve a couple of problems in the ambience regeneration and early reflections directionality.

You can't have the next big think without MC compatibility and living toom friendliness these days. Luckily the OSD is both MC compatible and easy to integrate. You have to hear it when somebody cheering next to you - not on the side as in standard MC- , or whispers in your ear.

It is only a plus that it makes the stereo record reproduction way more realistic than standard stereo speakers could ever achieve.

Wether it will be successfull, that's a very different question.

Frank

John Casler · « **Reply #14 on:** 21 Sep 2004, 03:38 pm »

Quote from: cryotweaks

Loudspeaker manufacturers are going to be pissed!

Wow, next year is really going to be interesting. With the further refinement of digital amplification, signal transmission like Sony ES's Digital Drive, and now this. Looks like 2005 will be a groundbreaking year in audio.

Hey Mike,

Maybe not....They get to sell everyone a whole new set of speakers

As the info states this use of two speakers to create surround is not new.

Harman's VMAx, Nakamichi's Niro 1.1, Q-Sound, and several others have these systems (or variations) available.

http://www.harmankardon.com/technology/default.aspx?Language=ENG&Region=USA&Country=US

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4176754/

http://www.qsound.com/2002/demos/main1.asp

However, I do see a big drawback, to most of the designs.

While many know that for 2 channel I support the precision of a low dispersion driver system which means a "small" sweet spot.

I think this works fine for two channel, but for HT, which more often means multiple viewer/listeners, that the spot needs to be larger.

I cannot find anything in the literature regarding the positioning and seating flexibility possible with this system. Even with all its drawbacks, the 5.1 system has a rather flexible seating potential.

Does this system have the same??? If the 3-D image collapses outside the "direct convergence" sweet seat, it might not find immediate acceptance.

Frank, how is the sweet seat??

PhilNYC · « **Reply #15 on:** 21 Sep 2004, 03:40 pm »

Quote from: csero

Actually Mr. Glasgal never claimed that he invented anything, he just used things in the proper way. ...

While that may be true, he has certainly talked of trying to commercialize his ambiophonics research at some point in the future. He sometimes talks about "the 20-some years between the invention of stereo and its commercial success; with ambiophonics, we are in year 11"...

dwk · « **Reply #16 on:** 21 Sep 2004, 06:54 pm »

Thanks for the link info. After reading the summary article, I realize I've read it before, although quite a while ago.

I'm close to having my multichanel BruteFir convolution rig up and going again, and this could be interesting to try. I could in theory go up to 4 way 'around the horn', although I'd have to do some thinking about what type of xover topology would be appropriate.

Horizons · « **Reply #17 on:** 21 Sep 2004, 07:32 pm »

So this requires signal processing AND separating your drivers?

I really don't want to give up my Maggies to do this...

jqp · « **Reply #18 on:** 21 Sep 2004, 08:41 pm »

Quote from: cryotweaks

Loudspeaker manufacturers are going to be pissed!

Yeah but speaker stand manufacturers will be ecstatic!

I can just imagine - 4 expensive stands, or even a granite or marble arch across the front of your system...

AphileEarlyAdopter · « **Reply #19 on:** 21 Sep 2004, 10:41 pm »

John's expert comment that this will have a narrow sweet spot is dead on. I suspect so as well.
The only way I imagine this will be rolled out to the users is, it will make use of the multi-channel speakers to distribute the sound. It will be a mode in your receiver which will direct all high-frequencies to the center channel, the mids to the fronts and the bass to the side-effects/rear/subwoofer. It will be just another option in the receiver to sell a newer model (like Dolby Prologic IIx ).
It is difficult for me to imagine that even in the long run speaker manufacturers are going to build out separate high/mid/low and majority are going to upgrade to this. Note, many people have still not moved away from stereo (including self).

If the effect is not good enough with a minimum of three speakers (front L/R and center channel), I dont think this technology is going anywhere.