[JackD201]

Perhaps or maybe simply stating that the wire is from the same lot/production run. The thing about the Ultras is that when the supply is gone, it's gone forever. It's a piggyback thing. Too costly for the small runs an audio cable company can order and certainly sell. I try not to think of it all that much, the limited-ness that is. Obsessing never does me any good. My wife chuckles at a lot of things anyway so I'm happy 

[ACHiPo]

My wife chuckles at a lot of things anyway so I'm happy 

Happy wife, happy life!

[violetmachan]

hello Jack

It's very heartening to know your are Mrs & Mr Chuckles .......I am sure it's an ideal combo especially in the Hiend distributor/ retailer audio trade .......your one of the few in this audiosite,  who's still sharp and witty...
But  jack , as they say...." Behind every successful man there is a women and behind her is his wife" :

Jack , it may take me years before I hear the magic ......as I plan to run them in on my cinema system

Well, whats jim's take on the fully cooked ultra loom he's using in his system.....I am sure you would have heard them......and probably you would have been the installer!

[violetmachan]

hi AC

I presume happy wife is happy life! ......but happy music could be no wife!!...or better life

[JackD201]

hello Jack

It's very heartening to know your are Mrs & Mr Chuckles .......I am sure it's an ideal combo especially in the Hiend distributor/ retailer audio trade .......your one of the few in this audiosite,  who's still sharp and witty...
But  jack , as they say...." Behind every successful man there is a women and behind her is his wife" :

Jack , it may take me years before I hear the magic ......as I plan to run them in on my cinema system

Well, whats jim's take on the fully cooked ultra loom he's using in his system.....I am sure you would have heard them......and probably you would have been the installer!

Hi Sam

Jim is very pleased. I did hear them when the ICs were brand spanking new. My impression was that Albert's warnings are IMO a bit overstated. They weren't that bad actually, not as fleshed out as a burned in pair but not that thin or sonically canted either. Nothing compared to the roller coaster one has to go through when burning in Teflon or Silk caps. That I am absolutely sure of.  Thing is when I do get the chance to hear the full loom, I'd have missed the perfect window of opportunity to compare. He has a new pre-amp so I won't know exactly what's doing what. His system already sounded friggin' awesome before so if he's that happy (and Relieved!) with what he's getting now. It MUST be good. Jim's even pickier than I am and I am REALLY picky!

[violetmachan]

hi Jack

That sounds very good indeed!........more so like "Friggin gooood mate!".

Its good to be picky

Now for Alberts warning.......he probably was being very cautious!! with is linear accelerator cable....500 hours your are nearly there......by 1000 you should be able to both see and hear the twinkle in the very very special cable





The cables are coming close to 500 hours of runnning in on my meridian cinema system.....aah!,but.....must say chums......very promising**








hence ,I get to listen to some TV broadcasts and documentaries.....which I feel for most listened sounds is  best for judging reproduced audible sounds.....ie like the narrator`s voice in a  documentery/tonality of clapping of audience in a live recording


will do some indepth synopsis in the weekend....probably time for ALL  vsa singnatures to move over to, being almost ultra real!


Did search for a regional cable kooking retailer facility......could not find one along the coast....so decided just to do the standard runin at home.....Really Enjoying it .....except the very subtle pings, bongs and sreeching sounds I seem to hear in my dreams 


Jack , I am not techno savy....did you mean there are teflon/silk caps in these ultra wires?

[JackD201]

Don't worry Sam. No caps in cables   They are present in a lot of electronics and loudspeakers these days though and are one of the main reasons for modern gear and speakers taking more than the usual 100 hours to burn in.

[kernelbob]

Some thoughts on the MasterBuilt Signature and Ultra cabling.  Starting in 2011, I auditioned and ultimately purchased a full set of Masterbuilt Signature interconnects, speaker cables, and power cords.  I've posted my listening impressions elsewhere in the VSA circle, so I don't want to go into to much detail here.  They are very neutral (not a "tone control" cable) with bass that goes down to the subterranean and a sense of the rightness of timbre of any instrument or voice served through them.  After several weeks of use, a richness of tonal color develops to complete the striking detail that's obvious when they were fresh out of the box.

The first time I inserted the Ultra interconnects (one two meter pair for now), an additional level of fine detail was immediately evident, both low volume (e.g. ambient sounds) as well as resolution of detail during loud passages.  Again, this is not the rising high end of added treble, not "tone controls".  The added resolution is across the frequency spectrum.  It was surprising to me how the Ultra improved bass articulation as well as the mids and treble openness and transparency.  Speaking of treble, the addition of Ultra, added more of that independence of instruments' sound that you hear in live performances.  Even in complex orchestral passages, delicate triangles, cymbal shimmers, etc. sound exactly the same as when they're played alone.  This ability to resolve individual instruments is one of Ultra's hallmarks.  The good news is that just inserting one set of interconnects of Ultra can apply its stamp on the whole system's sonic signature.  What I need to determine is how much better are stacked Ultra interconnects and (gulp) speaker cables?

Regarding the background of Delphi's capabilities, a focus of Delphi Aerospace's products requires the resolution of information from very low level signals.  This includes internal wiring of satellites and in receiving stations as well as their work on the LHC.  By the way, the LHC work required the transmission and recovery of information as part of the LHC detector assemblies.  That cabling, by the way, was not supercooled.  The big steering electromagnets do use supercooling to reach superconductivity levels to reach required high current capacity.  My point is that Delphi has extensive experience in measuring extremely low level signals and designing cabling that allow the recovery of the detail in these signals.

[SundayNiagara]

Some thoughts on the MasterBuilt Signature and Ultra cabling.  Starting in 2011, I auditioned and ultimately purchased a full set of Masterbuilt Signature interconnects, speaker cables, and power cords.  I've posted my listening impressions elsewhere in the VSA circle, so I don't want to go into to much detail here.  They are very neutral (not a "tone control" cable) with bass that goes down to the subterranean and a sense of the rightness of timbre of any instrument or voice served through them.  After several weeks of use, a richness of tonal color develops to complete the striking detail that's obvious when they were fresh out of the box.

The first time I inserted the Ultra interconnects (one two meter pair for now), an additional level of fine detail was immediately evident, both low volume (e.g. ambient sounds) as well as resolution of detail during loud passages.  Again, this is not the rising high end of added treble, not "tone controls".  The added resolution is across the frequency spectrum.  It was surprising to me how the Ultra improved bass articulation as well as the mids and treble openness and transparency.  Speaking of treble, the addition of Ultra, added more of that independence of instruments' sound that you hear in live performances.  Even in complex orchestral passages, delicate triangles, cymbal shimmers, etc. sound exactly the same as when they're played alone.  This ability to resolve individual instruments is one of Ultra's hallmarks.  The good news is that just inserting one set of interconnects of Ultra can apply its stamp on the whole system's sonic signature.  What I need to determine is how much better are stacked Ultra interconnects and (gulp) speaker cables?

Regarding the background of Delphi's capabilities, a focus of Delphi Aerospace's products requires the resolution of information from very low level signals.  This includes internal wiring of satellites and in receiving stations as well as their work on the LHC.  By the way, the LHC work required the transmission and recovery of information as part of the LHC detector assemblies.  That cabling, by the way, was not supercooled.  The big steering electromagnets do use supercooling to reach superconductivity levels to reach required high current capacity.  My point is that Delphi has extensive experience in measuring extremely low level signals and designing cabling that allow the recovery of the detail in these signals.

Where is the "Like" button?

[kernelbob]

Where is the "Like" button?

Your point?

[Delacroix]

I think he's saying 'YEAH!!!' --as in he LIKES that post you made

[Albert Von Schweikert]

Greetings Fellow Audiophiles,

As one of the Distributors of the Master-Built Audio Cables manufactured by Delphi Aerospace, I can say that the speaker cables alone do not cost $100,000.  That figure came from the thread where one of our wealthy clients ordered a $525,000 pair of speakers, wired internally with ULTRA along with 29-foot ULTRA interconnects, 6-foot ULTRA interconnects, 3-foot ULTRA interconnects, and two pairs of the 8-ft ULTRA speaker cables.  This entire system of ULTRA amounted to $121,000.  The ULTRA speaker cables that Violetmechan purchased were affordable, at least when compared to expensive cables by Nordost, MIT, Crystal Cable, Purist Audio, etc.  We don't want anyone to assume that they cannot afford the M-B cables, as they are no more expensive than the average cable.  However, I can readily understand that the unique nature of these cables, especially the ULTRA's, might project a vibe of extreme expense since it is widely known that these cables will outperform all other brands.

Like many of you, I had never heard much of a difference between different brands of cables when I got started.  In the beginning, around the mid 1970's, the  expensive cables were just heavier in gauge and offered no real differences in their dielectrics or winding geometries, much less the conduction wire formulations themselves.  They did sound a bit better than 18 AWG lamp cord, but many audiophiles stuck with the cheap stuff since they didn't have the time nor interest to start testing cables.  Heck, while I was at Cal Tech, one of my profs told me that "wire couldn't make an audible difference in a stereo system, as a rusty coat hanger will conduct electricity just as well as Monster Cable."   His line of reasoning kept me from doing any personal research so I continued to be a Luddite until I started listening to various cables a decade later. 

Five years ago, I had an "awakening."  At an aerospace conference that I attended, I met Nick from Delphi and had lunch with him.  He recognized my name on my badge and asked if he could get a pair of VR-4's to use for his testing purposes.  Over the years, I became one of his Beta testers along with a few other audiophile friends of his, and have now compared his cables to almost twenty brands of cables.  As I could not find a cable that was better (or even close to the M-B cables), I began to use them exclusively in our showroom and at the audio shows.  Last year, Robert Harley, the Editor of The Absolute Sound, awarded my room at the Newport Show as Best Sound Of The Show when he heard my VR-100XS.  I used the M-B cables, both inside the VR-100XS and also in the entire wiring loom, including power cords. 

At the last RMAF in October in Denver, using our VR-55 Aktives (which are also internally wired with M-B wire) and an entire wiring system of M-B cables, Spencer Holbert and two other reviewers at The Absolute Sound, awarded my room Best Sound of The Show.  Several other magazines have also awarded my rooms as Best Of Show including Positive Feedback, Audiophilia, Audio Video Showrooms, and Stereo Mojo.   The only thing that all of our rooms had in common was the Delphi cables.  Hopefully, that speaks for itself.

The Master-Built line was designed by math and electromechanical methods on a computer (I''ll brace myself for the responses this will bring), not by listening tests.  However, they do extensive listening comparison tests to verify their designs.  Their goal is to eliminate any type of coloration and/or degradation that a cable can add to a musical signal.  These distortions include  excess resistance, inductance, capacitance, and signal loss created by impurities in the conductor and unwanted interaction of the signal with free radical electrons in the insulation covering the conductor.

As Delphi has measured several hundred percentage points of differences in the ratio of capacitance, resistance, and inductance between various metals, winding geometries, and insulation properties, there is no surprise that these unwanted reactances HAVE TO affect the signal.  Delphi's goal is to eliminate any interaction between the signal and the conduction path, which is an extremely difficult task.  They use $4 million in test equipment (most companies have only a meter that costs a few hundred dollars) and Delphi has their own foundry which can formulate any type of conduction material you can dream up.  They have their own  apparatus used to insulate the conductors, and they control every single aspect of their products.  This is quite a step up from the guys who home-brew their designs on their kitchen table and have some small shop build product for them.  While many of the larger cable companies do have factories, they do very little theoretical research and are mainly vehicles to generate large profits for the investors.  Delphi is nothing like that, there are no investors and the main thrust of their company is to supply NASA and the military with cable products that work in the field.  Delphi has been working with NASA since the first space mission and has been an integral element to the success of modern satellite and space vehicle power systems.  The cables need to transmit very low level signals with full integrity even with sun spot activity, so shielding is a big factor, as well as very low resistance and reactance so that the millivolt signals sent by the computer to low powered transmission systems will not be corrupted.  Sounds very similar to the target spec of an audio cable, doesn't it?

The ULTRA conductors are something unique to the audio industry.  Many potential customers wonder why a design used for the CERN project would have any effect on audio signals, and I was one of the people questioning this wire's utility for audio.  Instead of going into a long dissertation about the design and why I should automatically love it, they simply gave me simple details and a Beta sample to hear.

Until you hear this ULTRA conduction device yourself (I hesitate to call it "wire" as it is made of rare earth metal powders that are molten into threads), it is very difficult to describe what ULTRA sounds like.  For starters, there is no "sound" to this cable; instead it is an invisible carrier of the signal.  You are only hearing the signal itself, without the gross pollution caused by defects in normal cable design.  To make the explanation simple, the ULTRA cable enables your system to virtually explode with millions of fractiles of sonic detail (normally blended into a "mush" by most other cables).  The signal is far more dynamic, to the point where you think that you've turned up the volume control by accident.  Instead of just being louder, however, the dynamic range between loud and soft, as well as distance differentials in the image recreation, are magnified due to the lack of parasitic losses inherent in normal copper or silver wire.  The sonic purity of the signal is magnified, as is depth and frequency extension at both bass and treble ranges.  These are not "small" or insignificant differences, they are so audible that anyone can hear them.

As we have sold over 200 sets of M-B cables without a single refund in the past couple of years, we are confident in letting our customers try these cables in their own systems for 90 days at no penalty.  There are no restocking fees, nor do we even charge for shipping in the US.  The free home trial is exactly as stated.  If you have an interest in upgrading your stereo system, please contact us for a M-B catalog and price list.
My personal email is: <albert@vonschweikert.com> and I would be happy to discuss these cables with you.

As always, Happy Listening!
AVS

[kernelbob]

I remember when I was able to first audition the prototype Ultra interconnect.  At the time I was using a full system of Masterbuilt Signature cabling.  Just inserting that single set of IC's added that extra level of detail, transparency, openness, dynamics, etc. that Ultra brings to the party.  If you already have high performing interconnects, speaker cables, and power cords such as the Masterbuit series, just adding one set of Ultra IC's can take your system to another level.  As Albert indicated Ultra's improvements are not small differences.  I've not (yet) had an opportunity to hear what a second set of Ultra IC's and/or speaker cables can do in combination with my one pair of IC's, but I hope that as part of this thread's evaluation of a complete loom of Ultra, the degree of change with incremental addition of Ultra can be also explored.

Best,
Robert

[ACHiPo]

Robert, Albert, et alia,
Thanks for your thoughtful input on this topic.

Evan

[JackD201]

I remember when I was able to first audition the prototype Ultra interconnect.  At the time I was using a full system of Masterbuilt Signature cabling.  Just inserting that single set of IC's added that extra level of detail, transparency, openness, dynamics, etc. that Ultra brings to the party.  If you already have high performing interconnects, speaker cables, and power cords such as the Masterbuit series, just adding one set of Ultra IC's can take your system to another level.  As Albert indicated Ultra's improvements are not small differences.  I've not (yet) had an opportunity to hear what a second set of Ultra IC's and/or speaker cables can do in combination with my one pair of IC's, but I hope that as part of this thread's evaluation of a complete loom of Ultra, the degree of change with incremental addition of Ultra can be also explored.

Best,
Robert

I was about to say don't remind me but then I realized I ordered 4 ICs this morning. 

[violetmachan]

hello folks

Guys ,  fabulous responses from each and every one of you .ie. makers, designer, distributors, passionate VSA followers, not so keen supporters and most practical people who feel that this site if filled with very finicky, nitpicking ,sometime offensive , obsessed with what is called music and reproduced recorded sound!.....not withstanding the wasteage of what is called money.......but what the hell!
All of them hoping to find organised noise they love to call music in their so called ideal rooms  and beloved systems.

As for me I am thoroughly enjoying this ride......and really glad I could not get my hands on a cable cooker to accelerate and optimise the ultra loom( thanks to Albert and cor's advice)

I have been spending the whole day listening to all same cd's/videos we listened to  while we did power amps comparison some time ago.....and also using the cinema systems for TV broadcasts.

I hope to compile a  not so boring , montage of impressions at the 500 hours ultra loom runin......remember it's only my experience and impressions in my living room......and it's sooo, sooo  subjective and not gospel truth

hello jack

way to go jack, any chuckles!( just joking)......4 IC of ultras .....you must add the speakers cables.
It goes against the accepted laws for audible change in perceived sound..ie change in power cords, followed by IC's and lastely the speaker cables.

hi Robert

All your indepth observations are soo true and spot on ....your 100x internally wired with ultras and the Ultra ICs....your almost there

Now this might sound like a sales pitch for MB-VSA......but it's not .I have no association or have any monetary gain.....Its all in the name of music .

The ultra speaker cables are truly ....life like and the mb-vsa signatures are very poor comparison .......sorry for that.

I have loved and used the VSA speaker signature in biwire from its inception for many years...but!!
so in the name of just purely sound....you do need to do your last order for musical magic. I am sure
your system must be sounding mighty real as it is !

hi Albert

That was the most eloquent, real and indepth intro to delphi and the MB- VSA brand of cables.....sad that all other models irrespective of the grade / need of systems they cater to.......the ultra is no comparison.

I think you and nick better start stocking some entire looms of ULTRA sets for demo's

I do know these very special and only made to order and only of limited and finite supply......
But you must give a chance for your 200 plus signature users to really hear the true magic of the ultra's

Hello all others , Evan, AC.....always nice to hear the many sides of perceived sound....we call music

enjoy the ride....happy listening

activeviolet
Sam

[violetmachan]

hello Gavin

I seem to have forgotten you.....hope the new year 2015 is treating you right .....and your are waiting for your great sonic awakening!.....congrats on your decision to jump a few levels from Annie's ..

Gavin ,this is just a warning.....before your vr9se mark2 is done.....ask Albert to do the internals in ultra!!! :

sam

[kernelbob]

The idea of a full loom of Ultra doesn't appear to be getting out of my head any time soon.  I don't know how the cost of the speaker cables compares to the interconnect, but given that they have to handle current delivery, I expect that they're more dear than the ICs.  Given that I'm likely to continue to use monoblocks, I could use very short lengths of SCs on the order of one meter or less.  Bi-amping allows the use of an amp that excels in bass control and deep extension coupled with another amp that really sings in the midrange and up.  My experience is that it's very difficult and expensive to find an amp that excels at both chores.  Also, the amp on top will sound even better if it is only driving the mid/tweeter section which presents very high impedance below the crossover frequency, reducing current delivery demand.  Unfortunately, the bi-amp configuration needs more cabling including ICs to another attenuator ahead of the bass amp to balance the levels of the amps.  So the count of cables goes up.

With the toll for Ultra being what it is, one has to consider system configuration alternatives that would reduce cable counts, but I don't think I would want to commit to only bi-wiring instead of bi-amping.  Keeping the Signature cabling on the bass is a possibility, but Ultra has improvements in the bass as well as the mid/tweeter section.  As you can tell, I'm playing out various scenarios in my head.

Regarding Ultra vs. Signature, I don't have experience with the full Ultra loom, but I do want to emphasize the substantial benefit I've had with the insertion of Ultra IC at just one point in the signal path.  I'd be curious to hear from folks how much improvement they've heard from auditionaing one Ultra IC set in their system.  I expect that the level of improvement is correlated with the initial performance level of the rest of the system's interconnects, speaker cables, and power cords.  Having lived with the MB signature series for several years now, I suggest that the Signature series provides a level of quality that allows a minimum amount of Ultra to have a major benefit, not equal to a full loom, but also without the cost of a full loom.

I'm looking forward to continuing updates the full tilt Ultra system as all the pieces settle in.  Meanwhile I'll continue to ponder my situation.

Regards,
Robert

[violetmachan]

hello Robert

I did view you gallery .....I am not sure what parts make up your system

I am no connoisseur of or sound guru......biamping with solidstate spectron amps for woofer/low freq amplification  and the tube KR audio kronzilla' s for mid and high freq amplification .....each of them may be masterpieces on their own and using different grade of vsa mb speaker cables for each segments of sound?

well , If It was me.....I would strive to keep the whole system as simple as I can  and uniform same cabling to try to aim to get that magical synergy between the units ,it's interaction with your room and most importantly coherent sound......that will give you goose bumps every time you listen to music

The magic of Albert 's active speaker systems ....like your vr100x....is its flexibility to work in most spaces....so all you would need is good/decent mid range amplication and Kronzilla monoblocks is something I am very used to...pure full range magic.....which I believe would be a ideal Match for your speakers .
I am sure your Kronilla duals should be more than ....ideal

To top it all imagine the sound you would get if you had IC ultra's ( I presume you already have one pair)......and all you need to do is have the standard biwire of ultra speaker cables ( I think the idea of two set of ultras ie 8 pieces of cable as true biwire was a little excessive on my part.....but I really liked what I heard with cor's 8 piece Harmonic tech top cables in my system.....and was hoping to go way beyond ...).

Robert ,the part of the sonic puzzle.....the Ultra IC were introduced for more the 12 months in my system......it did everything your have noted ......but the introduction of the speaker cables was the true magic link
Albert was very right on all he claims it can do!!... remember we are not looking price point and it's returns.....the plan was to get close to life like sound.....The Ultra speaker cable is like an actual life form....and so real that ,sound and broadcast just flows as the recording engineer planned it.

It's just my two bits ......it's not the holy grail.

ask Albert to lend/loan a speaker set of ultra.

did not plan to confuse or stirr the mind

warmregards....hope you find what your lookin for!......don't forget to keep listening



Sam

[kernelbob]

Hi Sam,

Thanks for your response.  Regarding the biamping configuration on the 100's.  First off, the VR100XS does not use a built-in bass amp.  Albert and I discussed whether to go that route, but he decided that VR100XS customers would prefer the configuration which would allow them to choose just how they would want to drive the bass drivers, biwired or biamped and with any amplifier of their choosing.

Each of the XS subwoofers use a signal sense cable connected to the corresponding VR100 tower's input woofer binding posts.  This signal sent to the subwoofer is voltage only and drives a 1000 watt amp built in to the XS subwoofer.  The subs are placed at the rear of the room and generate bass from where you set their HF rolloff down to below 10 Hz with the appropriate phase offset dialed in.

Regarding biamping, I've tested running the Spectrons and the Krons separately (one amp biwired to a VR100 tower).  The Spectrons by themselves demonstrated excellent bass control and deep bass extension as expected since they have extremely low output impedance with a very high damping factor.  When running the Krons by themselves, the mids and tweeters had better mids and treble with more detail, richer harmonics, and a more relaxed sound.  However the Krons just did not go low enough in the bass to properly feed the lowest frequencies to the subwoofers and the tower's woofers did not have the articulation/control that they demonstrated with the Spectrons.

I also was concerned about the Krons/Spectrons playing well together, particularly whether the bass and mid/tweeter ranges would seamlessly integrate.  I've found that the combo is great with each amp able to do what it does best.  As I mentioned, when the Krons are driving only the mid/tweeter taps, they (the Krons) run cooler and have more headroom.  This integration of a high powered, beefy transistor amp with the magic of a SET tube output stage has proved to be a great combo.

Regarding the potential contribution of the Ultra speaker cable.  I didn't mean to indicate disagreement or doubt on their impact, but not everyone will be able to go for the full monty of Ultra, and I don't want frame the choice as limited to a binary option of all Signature or all Ultra when there is significant benefit to be had from one set of ICs or for that matter, I expect from one set of Ultra speaker cables.

My descriptions of the alternatives, pros and cons regarding cost, compromizes, etc. were to touch on a range of configurations, but each person's situation, opportunities, and priorities are unique.  As for a decision for my set up, I've read that when we perceive that we're making a decision what is usually happening is that we are only then consciously perceiving a decision that a had been made internally some time earlier.  I've already had a phone discussion with Albert that among other things touched on the Ultra topic.

Best,
Robert