[andy_c]

Rob and Nathan,

Thanks for the corrections on the multichannel issue and the AIX disc format.

[doug s.]

Nathanm,

I'm trying hard to intepret your findings of the Benchmark.

Did you use a Toshiba 3950/3960? I know it's loved at AA, but they're cheap to the extreme! As mentioned above, how can you make a useful comparison without using a really good transport? As you haven't been able to hear any difference in DACs, my guess is that whatever Toshiba you're using, it is the limiting factor.

Aside from the issues of making a valid comparison, it seems that your conclusion is that the Benchmark made a cheap DVD comparable to a $2000 (retail) CD player and it can also eliminate the need for a pre-amp in a CD only system. Not bad for $975 with its apparent build quality and being made in the USA.

I've got a slightly used Sony DVP-S7700 on the way and am looking for a good DAC. Note that modded, the S7700 can serve as a very highly regarded transport. So I've got the speakers and transport in place for a new system and need to fill in the blanks. The Benchmark could fill a couple of those blanks. Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

hi jlm, ya ca run, but ya cannot hide!     give up the benchmark idea, awreddy, willya?   get a preamp from bill at response audio - http://www.responseaudio.com/ming-da%20reference%20preamps.htm - and then get a new or used scott nixon, ack!, or modded art di/o.  the resultant sonics will be so much better than running the benchmark straight into an amp, it isn't even funny.  (imo, of course!)     other good (cheap) preamp choices include dodd audio's $450 linestage (based upon the melos ma333, so i hear), or one of these:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1106158473
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14974&item=5733158571

now, if i *had* to do a one-box solution, i would get the melos dvt, cuz i know it has their sha-gold/sha-3 preamp built-in.  personally, i don't like the one-box solution, cuz i think it limits future upgrade options...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3272&item=3853739540

regards,

doug s.

[JLM]

Doug S.,

Ain't you just a persistent kinda guy?

I've got a good transport coming, so I'm not looking for a player/pre-amp.

And I've got a good pair of speakers, so what I need is the rest (DAC, pre-amp, and amp).

A mensa art DI/O is about $650 with upgraded power supply.  An Ack dAck! is $525 but has low output.  The TubeDac+ with upgraded power supply is $590.  Modding the dAck! from EA adds $525.  Modding the TubeDac+ adds $300.  So what would be your pick?

The pre-amp I'd go with is the new $595 Decware SE84CSP that provides lots of gain.  Steve Deckert runs his small business from Peoria, IL.  He offers lifetime warrantees.  He's interested mostly in high efficiency speakers and SET amps with a twist.  His various amps are based on small diameter and inexpensive SV83, EL34, or EL84 tubes.  Many prefer 2 - 4 ohm loads.  And the sound is dryer, faster, quieter, more accurate, more detailed, and provide better imaging than other SETs.  In other words, they make for a great low powered crossover between tubes and solid state.  I've heard many of Steve's products and not heard a bad one.  BTW his prices are very reasonable.  Long before I'd buy anyone elses tube amps or pre-amps, I'd buy Steve's stuff.

For amps I'd like at least 30 wpc, but 12 wpc has worked well with my speakers as they're 90 dB/w/m, easy to drive (no crossover and transmission line loading), I'm not a headbanger, and the room is 2100 cubic feet (8x13x21) and I'll be listening nearfield.  Like most tube amps the Decware products are not well damped (better for compression/horn loading low Qts drivers).  My speakers/drivers do not fall into that camp.  So I'm looking for chip amp, digital, or good solid state amp too.

[doug s.]

Doug S.,

Ain't you just a persistent kinda guy?

I've got a good transport coming, so I'm not looking for a player/pre-amp.

And I've got a good pair of speakers, so what I need is the rest (DAC, pre-amp, and amp).

A mensa art DI/O is about $650 with upgraded power supply. An Ack dAck! is $525 but has low output. The TubeDac+ with upgraded power supply is $590. Modding the dAck! from EA adds $525. Modding the TubeDac+ adds $300. So what would be your pick?

The pre-amp I'd go with is the new $595 Decware SE84CSP that provides lots of gain. Steve Deckert runs his small business from Peoria, IL. He offers lifetime warrantees. He's interested mostly in high efficiency speakers and SET amps with a twist. His various amps are based on small diameter and inexpensive SV83, EL34, or EL84 tubes. Many prefer 2 - 4 ohm loads. And the sound is dryer, faster, quieter, more accurate, more detailed, and provide better imaging than other SETs. In other words, they make for a great low powered crossover between tubes and solid state. I've heard many of Steve's products and not heard a bad one. BTW his prices are very reasonable. Long before I'd buy anyone elses tube amps or pre-amps, I'd buy Steve's stuff.

For amps I'd like at least 30 wpc, but 12 wpc has worked well with my speakers as they're 90 dB/w/m, easy to drive (no crossover and transmission line loading), I'm not a headbanger, and the room is 2100 cubic feet (8x13x21) and I'll be listening nearfield. Like most tube amps the Decware products are not well damped (better for compression/horn loading low Qts drivers). My speakers/drivers do not fall into that camp. So I'm looking for chip amp, digital, or good solid state amp too.

me, persistent?     well, since i use a self-modded art di/o & am wery happy w/it, i'd go w/that one.  two mensa di/o's yust sold on agon for $360 - at least, that was the asking price, dunno what they actually went for.  there's another one (presumably no-mensa), asking price is $300.  re: the s/n & ack!, while i'd love to hear one, i've never had the opportunity, & i really am not sure it would be worth it for me to buy one to a-b.  cuz, reading from what others have said about 'em, who *have* a-b'd, 'em, i think i would be happiest w/what i have presently.  this is based upon comments from folks, some who have preferred the d/io, some who have preferred either the s/n or the ack!.  from what i can make of it, the ack! & the s/n are more similar to each other than to the di/o.  both perhaps a bit smoother, but not as dynamic, & not as extended at the frequency extremes.  as i run tubes, & am not lacking at all for smoothness w/my di/o, i wouldn't wanna give up the dynamics of the extended response.  re: the bolder p/s, i think it's likely a wery good product, but since mondo power supplies & isolation transformers are awailable on ebay for pennies on the dollar, i'd pass, unless one was included w/a used unit someone was selling.

re: ea mods if ya decide on the ack! or s/n, no offense, but i wouldn't give ea my biz regardless of how good the stuff is - total rip-off, imo.  i am sure you could get chris own to tweek his ack!, or scott nixon his tube-dac for ya, or someone like modwright or bolder cables to do it, for *at least* 50% less than what ea charges.  same as if i opted for an electrocompaniet or p3a - i'd send it to any of those guys before sending it to ea.  yust my take on it, of course - it *is* a free market!    

re: preamps/amps/etc, if ya like steve deckert's stuff, cool - go w/it!     while i have no 1st-hand experience, i have spent time at his website, & am always reading comments about folk that love his gear.  i yust mentioned those melos pieces cuz i know the gear (as i own a melos pre), & i know it's great - dynamic, detailed, good soundstage, neutral, extended, blah-blah-blah.  i can assure you that the decware pre and any of the dacs yure considering would be better than the benchmark run straight into an amp (at least to these ears).  don't get me wrong - if ya want the benchmark, go for it - yust up yer budget for the preamp!  

re: amps, well, i don't think yure on the wrong track, unless of course, ya skip a tubed preamp!     me personally, while i haven't auditioned a ton of amps, & have no experience w/the newest gain-clone or chip amp types, i'll w/what i know & recommend checking out electrocompaniet amps.  certainly not tubes, but one of the few s/s amps that most tube guys can still enjoy.  here's a killer one (i know, i own two of 'em!)  


http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1103643911

and, if ya ever go to less-efficient speakers, that amp, stable w/loads below 1 ohm, & w/60a of current output capacity, you'll still be cruisin'.  me, personally, my ec's are saved for subwoofer duty, as i am now a certified tube guy.  for your needs, i mite look at something like this - 40wpc of set triode, that can deal easily w/4 ohm loads, & will be able to control your woofers.  of course, you'll have to find 'em used (like i did!), to meet yer budget:


http://audiomirror.com/products.htm

regards,

doug s.

[Rocket]

Hi,

Scott Nixon and Chris Own don't actually recommend the EA modifications to their units.

Regards

Rod

[JLM]

thanks Dave S. & Rod,

The mod thing can certainly be overdone.  Unless the original is cheap enough for you (based on your own values/pocketbook) I wouldn't spend more on mods than the stock piece.  My other criteria are that the construction of the stock piece must hold up long enough and the improvement in sound quality good enough justify the expense).  It seems that the art DI/O (at $100 with no moving parts) and Sony S7700 (at $200 with a good track record for quality) qualify on these last counts.

While the Panny and JVC digital receivers sound stupid good and are inexpensive, they're built just too cheaply to invest 2 - 3 times the asking price to mod IMO.  But thats my wallet talking, YMMV.

Most companies wouldn't recommend modding their stuff and usually void the warrantee.  Dan Wright's work with P-3A or Channel Island Audio is sanctioned by the manufacturers and they in fact will honor the warrantee after his mods.

Doug, I do agree with much of what you're saying.  I'm just kinda shaking the trees to see what falls out.

[Rocket]

Hi,

To be totally honest i think if i had my time all over again i would be a player that can play cd's, sacd and dvd-a instead of buying an external dac.  I would then have it modified by modwright or another reputable modding company and leave it at that.

My perpetual technologies p3a level 1 modwright is currently being upgraded to level 2 by dan.  Yes, i sent it all the way from oz to the states.

The stock pt p3a is much better than a stock cdp but mods certainly improved it by a wide margin.

If you have a look at one of the EA threads you will notice that scott nixon and chris own don't recommend modding their products.

Best wishes and good luck with your decision.

regards

rod

[lonewolfny42]

same as if i opted for an electrocompaniet or p3a - i'd send it to any of those guys before sending it to ea. yust my take on it, of course - it *is* a free market!  

Hi doug,

I was curious about this statement ? EA did a great job on my ECD-1. Much improved over how it sounded in stock form. Now I also own a Mensa Dio, a stock Dio, and a stock P-3A. They fall short compared to the sound I now get with the EA ECD-1. Is it just the mod cost that your not in favor of ? Have you heard any EA mod's ? Just wondering......thanks ! [/list:u]

[Mad DOg]

for what it's worth, i'll be getting the EA modded demo P-3/A DAC to compare  with my MW Level 2 P-3/A DAC...the EA P-3/A arrives on monday...

[Mad DOg]

same as if i opted for an electrocompaniet or p3a - i'd send it to any of those guys before sending it to ea. yust my take on it, of course - it *is* a free market!...

as much as i have enjoyed my MW level 2 p-3/a, after having heard both Dodson DACs, my MW modded DAC sounds much more digital in comparison thus rendering it hard to listen to now.

[JLM]

mad dog,

Please keep us posted of the comparison between MW v2 of the P-3A and the EA P-3A.

[Rocket]

Hi Mad Dog,

I would also be interested in your comparsion of the modwright level 2 dac and ea version, however i could not afford the ea modification to the dac.

Although i have never heard the dodson dacs and can only imagine how they sound by reputation, i certainly would not classify the pt modwright dac as sounding digital.  May'be i need to clean my ears   .

best wishes

Rod

[audioengr]

Hi,

Scott Nixon and Chris Own don't actually recommend the EA modifications to their units.

Regards

Rod

Not true.  Scott has referred several customers to me for mods of the dAck!.  He has a different vue of mods that Scott Nixon.  Scott Nixon is the ONLY manufacturer that I have run across that has an issue with this.

I am a small business too, and these kinds of posts might dissuade someone from sending a dAck! to me for mods, impacting my business.

[doug s.]

to those who have questioned my comments regarding the ea mods, let me make it clear that i haven't listened to any ea gear.  it may in fact sound great - i have no reason to believe otherwise.  for me, tho, i'd spend my dollars elsewhere - i simply think he overcharges.  yust my opinion.

ymmv,

doug s.

[audioengr]

to those who have questioned my comments regarding the ea mods, let me make it clear that i haven't listened to any ea gear.  it may in fact sound great - i have no reason to believe otherwise.  for me, tho, i'd spend my dollars elsewhere - i simply think he overcharges.  yust my opinion.

ymmv,

doug s.

No customer of mine has ever told me he felt ripped-off.  I am an engineer, not a technician.  The quality of my work is reflected in the reviews.  The mods I make have significant impact on the performance of components.  A Porsche Turbo is expensive too, but once you drive one, you understand why.

[doug s.]

Hi,

Scott Nixon and Chris Own don't actually recommend the EA modifications to their units.

Regards

Rod

Not true.  Scott has referred several customers to me for mods of the dAck!.  He has a different vue of mods that Scott Nixon.  Scott Nixon is the ONLY manufacturer that I have run across that has an issue with this.

I am a small business too, and these kinds of posts might dissuade someone from sending a dAck! to me for mods, impacting my business.

while chris certainly may have referred several customers to you, (i'm sure you meant chris & not scott),  this does *not*, imo, necessarily mean he recommends your mods.  it yust means he isn't bothered by them.  reading chris' comments about your mods on your ack! mods thread certainly doesn't give me the feeling that he recommends your mods:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=13758&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

doug s.

[doug s.]

to those who have questioned my comments regarding the ea mods, let me make it clear that i haven't listened to any ea gear.  it may in fact sound great - i have no reason to believe otherwise.  for me, tho, i'd spend my dollars elsewhere - i simply think he overcharges.  yust my opinion.

ymmv,

doug s.

No customer of mine has ever told me he felt ripped-off. I am an engineer, not a technician. The quality of my work is relected in the reviews. The mods I make have significant impact on the performance of components. A Porsche Turbo is expensive too, but once you drive one, you understand why.

hey steve, i have no problems w/your pricing - it's a free market!          it's yust not for me, as being a free market, it means i can also shop elsewhere.  and, as evidenced by all the favorable comments about your work, i am sure it's exemplary.  if others want to pay what *i* perceive as top dollar for the same performance that can be had for less elsewhere, they have every right to do so.  

which, as you say, is why some folk buy porsche turbo's, i guess!  me, personally, i drove a porsche turbo a few years back, but wasn't all that impressed - it seemed a lot like the alfa gtv6 i was driving, but a luxo-iteration.  i much preferred my gtv6.  but, the test-drive *did* encourage me to mod my gtv6's engine to get another 50% more hp!    

regards,

doug s.

[audioengr]

while chris certainly may have referred several customers to you, (i'm sure you meant chris & not scott),  this does *not*, imo, necessarily mean he recommends your mods.  it yust means he isn't bothered by them.  reading chris' comments about your mods on your ack! mods thread certainly doesn't give me the feeling that he recommends your mods:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=13758&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

doug s.

Chris had a problem with the rating system in the thread, which compares the performance of various DAC's.  This is obviously very subjective.  However, customers are always looking for some metric for comparison.  Some of them believe that my system is a benchmark system and that my ears are pretty good.  

Several customers have told me that they were referred by Chris.  Why don't you email him and ask him if you dont believe me?

[doug s.]

Chris had a problem with the rating system in the thread, which compares the performance of various DAC's.  This is obviously very subjective.  However, customers are always looking for some metric for comparison.  Some of them believe that my system is a benchmark system and that my ears are pretty good.  

Several customers have told me that they were referred by Chris.  Why don't you email him and ask him if you dont believe me?

steve, tell me where in my statements above, did i say i didn't believe you?  in fact, i said just the opposite; i said:  "...while chris certainly may have referred several customers to you..."

while i know that chris had a problem w/your rating system, i also know he said this:

"...It is clear that Steve and I have very different views of what ideal aspects of sound are..."

this does *not*, imo, sound like a ringing endorsement of your mods to the ack!.  which is why i stand by my assertion that chris doesn't recommend your mods.  he yust knows there's more than one way to skin a cat, & he won't discourage folk from spending money elsewhere, if they think a "different" sonic presentation than what he offers w/the "stock" ack!, will be more to their liking.  personally, i think chris is being wery diplomatic about the whole ack! mod thing - good for him!

regards,

doug s.

[Mad DOg]

Although i have never heard the dodson dacs and can only imagine how they sound by reputation, i certainly would not classify the pt modwright dac as sounding digital.  May'be i need to clean my ears   .

Hi Rod,

Cleaning your ears out won't help.  A listen to the Dodson 218 will tho! It's really an issue of not missing what you haven't heard. So if you can't afford one, don't listen to it cuz once you have, you'll go crazy trying to get that sound!

I was perfectly happy w/ my MW level 2 modded front end which I never thought sounded digital until the last fateful listening session...Now I have a tough time listening to it.

One thing to be aware of tho...The rest of your system needs to be up to snuff to get the full benefit of better front end. We used Shokunin's Placette Active the first time I heard the Dodson 218. When he took it home w/ him, I had to use my Aragon preamp and the differences while still very noticeable weren't as huge. With a preamp as transparent as the Placette (one of the best IMO), the differences were HUGE. This is the reason why I got some EVS attenuators which are super transparent as well.

Thru my Aragon, the differences btwn the Dodson 263 DAC and MWII P-3/A DAC powered by the Monolithic PS (removed P-1/a due to the reduction of 6dB which doesn't mate well w/ the passive EVS attenuators) were there, but I had to strain and concentrate to hear them. Using the EVS attentuators, the differences are easy to hear. The Dodson 263 is simply more analog sounding...Voices lack a hardness that the MWII P-3/A DAC has. Decay is superior lending to a more open and transparent sound. Notes have more float and lilt to them. Music sounds more musical w/ a more relaxed pace. Overall definition and clarity are a bit better. Overall, everything is fuller and more fleshed out. Listening to the 263 for a few days and then going back to the P-3/A makes the differences more apparent.