[lextek]

So let's just say I happen to come across a Pro-Ject Carbon DC (red) and Cambridge Audio P551 or Shitt Mani.  Would I get a taste of the vinyl?

[MtnHam]

LP is other ideology. This is not best (sound quality) source. It has own sound, mechanical ("non virtual") moving parts - it interesting from aesthetic point of view. Same about tape.

I, and many other audiophiles, would have to disagree whith you.

[G Georgopoulos]

Hi G Georgopoulos,

Exactly! Low levels is critical point for 16 bit of CD.

Dithering is try keep these low levels from distortions via smoothing to noise floor, but need hard control of energy and spectrum ot dithering noise for achieving good results.

I think low levels inspired SONY and Phillips for developing of DSD in time of expensive 24-bit PCM DAC.

Best regards,
Yuri

Hi Yuri

Can we see bigger than 90dB s/n ratios by Dithering and DSD?

kind regards
George

[kingdeezie]

So let's just say I happen to come across a Pro-Ject Carbon DC (red) and Cambridge Audio P551 or Shitt Mani.  Would I get a taste of the vinyl?

The Project Debut was actually my first turntable. It easily sounded significantly better than my DAC at the time. This was a long time ago, maybe 6 or 7 years ago.

Here is the problem with "tasting" vinyl, I don't think there is cheap (financially or time investment) way to do it to get a good sense of what analog is capable of.

Most people think analog sounds "warmer," but the truth is, a poorly set up, or cheap analog set up, can sound harsh, bright, and sibilant very easily.

Analog has this amazing ability, when done well, to sound so open and transparent, while at the same time being completely natural and organic. IME, when done well, there is just this sense of density of details, clarity, tone, and texture that all mingle together. No digital that I ever heard has been able to aptly handle all of these avenues with aplomb. 

The problem is, vinyl is still a super niche market, even more so than DACs, and that makes it uber expensive.

It also requires a lot of involvement. When I had my newest turntable set up, the person that did the work for me demonstrated how small things impact the sound.

We listened to the same record, and each progressive time, he did something else to the playback chain to improve it.

For example, the first time was with a record I had cleaned previously, taken out of the sleeve, and placed on the turntable. The next time, the record was brushed. The next time, the record was cleaned with a VPI. The next the stylus cleaned. So on and so forth.

Now, everytime I go to listen to a record, I vaccum clean it with a VPI, brush it, clean the stylus, polish the stylus, apply stylast, etc, etc, because each of these little steps were additive to increasing the sound quality.

So, as you can see, vinyl is not easy. In order to reap the benefits of listening to it, you have to provide it time, patience, and money. Simply throwing a record onto the turntable and dropping the needle is not going to provide you with optimum sound quality.

I sometimes wish digital sounded nearly as good, so that I could live with the efficiency of it, in sacrifice to a little loss of sound quality. But, done right, vinyl is just on a whole different level.

 

 

 

[G Georgopoulos]

I read on a site that native digital dac noise floor can go down to 160dB!!!,is that possible???
anyone can confirm this?...

[audiventory]

Hi Yuri

Can we see bigger than 90dB s/n ratios by Dithering and DSD?

kind regards
George

Hi George,

Signal/noise ratio (SNR) depend on band of measurement. Here compared energy in band of signal vs. energy in band of noise. For differend size of band different SNR with same source audio file.

I measured it with third party instrument RMMA for pure 16 bit file (generated by RMMA also). I don't know their method of SNR measurement.

There SNR was about 98 dB ( see http://samplerateconverter.com/content/how-impact-audio-quality-pcm-dsf-conversion-1-bit-dsf-vs-pcm ).

I will talk here about maximal noise peak level, that I many times measured via sonoram for sweep sines (with maximal available for each bit-resolution amplitude), when test my software. It allow view full band of signal instead SNR for each frequency.



Real CDs (16 bit/44 kHz) has maximal noise peak levels about 117 dB.

It is not 6dB *16=96 dB. It depend on method of noise measurement via Furie transform with apllied window and accumulation.

For 24 bit/44 kHz we has maximal noise peak levels about 163 dB.



I achieved (in audio file conversion software) maximal noise peak levels about:

1. For dithering (alphaD)  112 dB.

2. For DSD64    -135 ... -141 dB.

3. For DSD128    -168 ... -170 dB.

For DSD256 and 512 while I can't measure correct noise peak level due lack of proper tool.


Best regards,
Yuri

[audiventory]

I, and many other audiophiles, would have to disagree whith you.

MtnHam,
It's complex matter. As example, tube amps (THD about 0,1 ... 1%) audiophiles like more transistor amps (THD about 0,001%).
Here we have "nice" distortions. "Pure" signal seems "dry".

In music production even exists sound enhancers (tube amp emulators) for digital recordings.

Best regards,
Yuri

[JLM]

deleted

[lextek]

My head hurts

[lokie]

Let me start out with.... This is an subjective opinion by me, so take it for what it's worth.

Lets just say there is an "absolute sound"... which there isn't but lets just say there is. So... What does it (money) take for a tape deck, turntable,  CD Transport/DAC, Computer/DAC to reach an absolute sound or at least an equal sound level in comparison.

Here's my attempt to put numbers to the concept:

Tape Deck- $2000
analog-  $4000
CD Transport/DAC- $6,000
Computer/ DAC- $8,000

[AllynW]

I have three types of playback devices: Computer into DAC,  A multiple format digital disc player which plays; standard Compact Disc, DVD-A, DVD-V & SACD and Two Turntables.

How do they compare?  All my gear sound great to me, your ears and brain my differ. That said, each device, with it’s related software, is stand alone and adds it’s own character to the performance.

I bought a pre-setup Pro-Ject Debut and cheap phono pre-amp, total price, less than 5 bills. It sounded pretty bad on the few LP’s I had at the time, but one sounded pretty good. That caused me to chase the sound. I did not get vinyls rewards until I had spent $1200.00.  A decent TT is only a start but you will need a good phono pre-amp and cartridge, they can get pricy.

With the recent increased interest in the format it is getting harder to find quality used LP’s.  Most of the new vinyl is taken from digital sources and audio quality is hit or miss.  It’s overpriced and the manufacturing quality control is not very good.

All that said, vinyl can be FUN.  Both my TT’s have user removable head shells for quick and easy cartridge change out.  Within two minutes, I can switch a cartridge and there by change the presentation.  A tube phono pre-amp can also fun, rolling tubes can be pricy but the sonic rewards are worth it. Like most things audio the cost starts to add up.

Bottom Line.  Digital for the most part is “Plug N’ Play”.  Vinyl playback and it’s infinite tweaks can be time consuming and pricy.

Good Luck

[MtnHam]

Vinyl playback, in most cases, will cost more than digital to obtain great results. If your goal is to enjoy the true excellence of vinyl, it is not cheap. But then, the same is true of digital, if you consider the cost of the acclaimed best, ie: dCS, MSB etc, $80-100K.

But, excellent vinyl playback can be achieved for less than $5K. With proper set-up, it should be superior to an equivalent investment in digital. Superb digital can be had with the Oppo 105/ModwrightTruth player for $3500. With high-rez media, IMO, it can come very close to vinyl. With this player, even Redbook CD is very enjoyable.
 

[G Georgopoulos]

Hi George,

Signal/noise ratio (SNR) depend on band of measurement. Here compared energy in band of signal vs. energy in band of noise. For differend size of band different SNR with same source audio file.

I measured it with third party instrument RMMA for pure 16 bit file (generated by RMMA also). I don't know their method of SNR measurement.

There SNR was about 98 dB ( see http://samplerateconverter.com/content/how-impact-audio-quality-pcm-dsf-conversion-1-bit-dsf-vs-pcm ).

I will talk here about maximal noise peak level, that I many times measured via sonoram for sweep sines (with maximal available for each bit-resolution amplitude), when test my software. It allow view full band of signal instead SNR for each frequency.



Real CDs (16 bit/44 kHz) has maximal noise peak levels about 117 dB.

It is not 6dB *16=96 dB. It depend on method of noise measurement via Furie transform with apllied window and accumulation.

For 24 bit/44 kHz we has maximal noise peak levels about 163 dB.



I achieved (in audio file conversion software) maximal noise peak levels about:

1. For dithering (alphaD)  112 dB.

2. For DSD64    -135 ... -141 dB.

3. For DSD128    -168 ... -170 dB.

For DSD256 and 512 while I can't measure correct noise peak level due lack of proper tool.


Best regards,
Yuri

Yuri,thank you very much sir!
your figures confirmed what i suspected for a long time

of cource vinyl people will tell you otherwise, let it be....

yuri ,again thank you...

[audiventory]

George,

It's simly numbers of real features of digital formats.

These features able measure for vinyl, but while I have not opportunity.

As right said MtnHam: "Vinyl playback, in most cases, will cost more than digital to obtain great results."

Like it equipment for LPs measurement (test disk, ADC, ...) also will expensive due precision must more than 3 times than measured feature.

Yuri

[G Georgopoulos]

Like it equipment for LPs measurement (test disk, ADC, ...) also will expensive due precision must more than 3 times than measured feature.

Yuri

Mr Yuri

Converting vinyl to digital,is not any more vinyl,it's digital,therefore with digital manipulation it will measure
better,since vinyl is analog it would be better to measure it with analog tools,i dont know if this would be possible,but that's how i see it...

yes even analog distortion is measured with computers these days,when i used to measure thd of amplifiers i did it using analog tools(generator,filter,scope etc)

kind regards
George

[audiventory]

Mr George,

Most narrow place in vinyl's measurement is test disk. Modern analog measurement tools is digital inside anyway

Best regards,
Yuri