[jtwrace]

Yeah, but they really don't need to. Subjective evaluation is (by definition) incontrovertible and leaves no basis for discussion.  It really is the easy way out. 

The premise that ferrites are evil and should "be gone" is just silly rhetoric.

The Lab Circle should probably be off limits to this kind of subjective evaluation nonsense, but, I guess not.

Dave.

Perfectly said.   

[FullRangeMan]

Around 2003/4 I buy some audioquest RF Stoppers filters supposed to act at 100kHz:

And used just one in the power cable from a Harkte HA2400 electric bass head unit, the result was clearly audible.
I hear a filtered sound, less natural and real sound from a pro fullrange speakers(4 x10'').

I bough these filters at a AQ dealer at a astonishing price of $50/pair it expensive even today.
Since then no more ferrite or IEC plugs, all add colorations to the music.

[jtwrace]

Just because you placed them where you *think* they're supposed to go doesn't mean that they will work.  Ferrites actually require a vast amount of knowledge (more than I have) on where and how to use them.  Like everything there is some science involved but that is overlooked very often in audio.   

[Folsom]

That's funny. The CD1 simply had them on all cables. How scientific is that?

[rollo]

It's all about reducing interference and noise, that's called Good Engineering Practice.
You are on your own deciding whether reducing interference and noise is a good thing.
Wait a minute, sometimes audiophiles think that a lomponent. ittle bit of background noise is added definition.

    Good engineering practice is key in designing a good sounding component. Reducing noise and interference is always a good thing no arguement there.
     At the end of the day when everything is engineered and built does one just put it in a box and send it off ? I would hope that the component is evaluated for its sonic outcome.  Halcro anybody ? Measured like nothing before but sounded just horrible.
     Yes my hearing is subjective. That is the point. Consumers buy product that sounds good, We hope good engineering practice is used in the design however my money goes to what sounds good to me. My money my decision. When someone tells me I'm not hearing what I'm hearing it just turns me off and a sale is not made.
     For you lab guys it is all about engineering and measuring. Great we need that. What we do not need are shut eyes. We respect your science so please respect our trained ears.

charles
     

[FullRangeMan]

Just because you placed them where you *think* they're supposed to go doesn't mean that they will work.  Ferrites actually require a vast amount of knowledge (more than I have) on where and how to use them.  Like everything there is some science involved but that is overlooked very often in audio.   

IMO ferrites are nice in data cables or data transmission cables or others computers cables, not in cables for music equips.
I have dont see a ferrite in a IBM serious data cable and if the Big Blue dont use...

[Davey]

    Good engineering practice is key in designing a good sounding component. Reducing noise and interference is always a good thing no arguement there.
     At the end of the day when everything is engineered and built does one just put it in a box and send it off ? I would hope that the component is evaluated for its sonic outcome.  Halcro anybody ? Measured like nothing before but sounded just horrible.
     Yes my hearing is subjective. That is the point. Consumers buy product that sounds good, We hope good engineering practice is used in the design however my money goes to what sounds good to me. My money my decision. When someone tells me I'm not hearing what I'm hearing it just turns me off and a sale is not made.
     For you lab guys it is all about engineering and measuring. Great we need that. What we do not need are shut eyes. We respect your science so please respect our trained ears.

charles
   

Charles,

I find most of your comment insulting.  Your inference that lab guys are telling you that you're not hearing what you're hearing or that we have shut eyes is just complete nonsense.  We have ears and are audiophiles too.  Nobody said that a device can't measure good and sound poor.

My goodness.

Dave.

[Folsom]

Dave,

There's a lot of guys on the internet that argue, but have never tried. I can see how rollo believes a discrepancy. People that measure have blind faith if they can't obviously see the difference it's not true; and others sometimes believe in hints that later have been concluded by ear to do nothing audibke, too. Sometimes we just don't know how to measure, or challenge ourselves with the placebo affect.

Some argue capacitors are the same, measure the same sound the same, but they actually don't measure the same at all and sound different too; as an example.

[Davey]

Blind faith and if we can't see the difference it's not true???  Your comment is almost as insulting as Charles.

Why would you even start off this thread.....in the way you framed/named it......in this Circle?

Dave.

[rollo]

 Dave I am with you not against you. It appears all to many times that if one hears a difference  in something say a cap for example the lab guys jump all over us. Cables forget that and powercords oh my !
 On a personal level if you are insulted I apologize as that is NEVER my intention. 


charles

[Folsom]

Dave, if you want it to be insulting, it will. I'm saying we're all real good at having faults. But at the same time often things are apparent and there's no real question. The employed measuring techniques are not always appropriate, but get passed as conclusive evidence. No one mentioned your name about any of this, Dave, relax. It should be fun to investigate why something sounds so different that isn't very obvious; but many prefer to say it's not obvious, not true. It's a difference in attitude, are you looking for a new place to seek data, or to prove an "audiofool" wrong?

[Davey]

I'd like to see some laboratory measurements backing up (or attempting to) your claims regarding the subjective aspects of removing ferrites.  Maybe they'd be conclusive, maybe not.....I'd be fine either way.
But is this is The LAB Circle for crying out loud.    Why does it even exist if subjective evaluations without lab testing are allowed.

You've probably got non-saavy AC members out there reading your posts and deciding to pop the lids on their equipment/cords and remove all the ferrites.  If they then run into a problem what will your advice be?  Put the ferrites back on? 

Dave.

[Folsom]

Yes, it's super easy, they clip on and off.

Not everyone has laboratory equipment. The circle uses a moniker, btw. Construction and DIY are in the headline.

[Davey]

Yes, it's super easy, they clip on and off.

Not everyone has laboratory equipment. The circle uses a moniker, btw. Construction and DIY are in the headline.

Yeah, that's what I thought.  (Not all of them do BTW.)  The ones that aren't easily removed/re-installed should be just left in place?  That evil we have to put up with?

Construction and DIY are outside the bounds of laboratory equipment?

Anyways, as already mentioned by sts9fan, your initial post should probably not have been in this Circle.

Sorry for the pesky comments but you guys bring this stuff on yourself.
But that's it, I'll leave you to it. 

Cheers,

Dave.

[Folsom]

What circle are you suggesting?

[Folsom]

Jerk? No thanks. 

[barrows]

Yeah, that's what I thought.  (Not all of them do BTW.)  The ones that aren't easily removed/re-installed should be just left in place?  That evil we have to put up with?

Construction and DIY are outside the bounds of laboratory equipment?

Anyways, as already mentioned by sts9fan, your initial post should probably not have been in this Circle.

Sorry for the pesky comments but you guys bring this stuff on yourself.
But that's it, I'll leave you to it. 

Cheers,

Dave.

I see nothing wrong with Salis' original post.  He took an action modifying a piece of gear, and reported on the outcome.  Then some of us started to speculate on the possible reasons for a change.  Including possible explanations for the effects.

Sure, laboratory measurements would be nice, but how many people on this forum have a capable spectrum analyzer?  Are you proposing that no one post in this forum unless they have a spectrum analyzer themselves to "prove" the results?  Do you have a good spectrum analyzer?  I doubt that there would be much activity on this forum if every post was required to be accompanied by precise scientific measurements.

[Davey]

What circle are you suggesting?

Post #6.  It wasn't me who made the suggestion, although I agree with it.
Jerk?  More insults.  Pathetic.

I suppose this circle should be renamed since the content doesn't necessarily agree with the title.  That said, I guess that's not unusual on AC! 

Obviously you shouldn't be required to have a spectrum analyzer to post here, but it would be nice if a person actually had an objective testing discipline as a baseline for their comments.
Of course, I guess even the word "laboratory" is a subjective term when it comes right down to it.    I guess that's sort of my point........there always seems to be a 90 degree turn available for an open-minded audiophile to take.  It's irritating but entertaining at the same time.

Oh well.

Dave.

[happyrabbit]

Sallis post was interesting.  Less is More.  CE standards are a pain in the butt.   You did the audio world a favor  !  I bet the designers didn't want them either but it was the only way to pass emissions..

Dwight

[Mags]

The guys at Ayre have mentioned previously their experiences using ferrites for power supply wiring feeding audio circuitry.  They experienced that at first the ferrites work as expected, lowering the noise level.  But then, the sound gets hard over time (glassiness).  they found that if one then de-gaussed the ferrites, the sound would go back to normal.  So they figured the ferrites were developing a magnetic field over time which changed their properties, and that periodic de-gaussing was the only way to restore them to good sound.
Just something to think about.

Wouldn't the same effect happen with any cored inductors in a power supply? They are all subjected to the magnetizing effect of DC current. Ever hold a screwdriver near a choke in a running supply? The choke will pull the screwdriver tip right to it, especially in a high amperage supply. The chokes in the 10A filament supply in my 833C amps are basically electromagnets!

Personally, I much prefer big old chokes in my supplies, which are always choke input and often LCLC. I don't see how ferrites are any different.