Tighten up plan. Please comment and suggest.

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jupiterboy

Tighten up plan. Please comment and suggest.
« on: 22 Dec 2014, 03:40 pm »
Hi. I have a new set of speakers and stands and a newish valve integrated. I'm about to pull the trigger on a Herbies order, and thought I would ask for some second guessing.

I am replacing the stock Skylan feet (not spikes) with threaded stud gliders (M6 x 20) for use on a wood floor, and decoupling the speakers from the stands with 4 each Herbies big fat square dots. I'm also pulling the stock feet on my 50+ lb integrated and replacing with extra-firm Big Tall Tenderfoots.

What I'm second guessing are the square dots. My monitor speakers are about 45 lbs each.

Thanks in advance for any input.

FullRangeMan

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Re: Tighten up plan. Please comment and suggest.
« Reply #1 on: 22 Dec 2014, 03:48 pm »
I would follow Herbie suggestions.

Herbie

Re: Tighten up plan. Please comment and suggest.
« Reply #2 on: 22 Dec 2014, 04:16 pm »
Hi, jupiterboy. Square Fat Dots are ideal between monitor and stand. For the amp, Big Tall are usually needed only if you need the extra height to lift the component free of the stock feet; if you remove the stock feet, regular Extra-Firm Tenderfoot isolation feet will do just as well.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

DaveC113

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Re: Tighten up plan. Please comment and suggest.
« Reply #3 on: 22 Dec 2014, 04:19 pm »
Hi Steve, can you compare the performance of the tenderfeet vs iso cups with supersonic hardballs?


Herbie

Re: Tighten up plan. Please comment and suggest.
« Reply #4 on: 22 Dec 2014, 04:24 pm »
Comparative differences between Tenderfoot isolation feet and Iso-Cups w/SuperSonic Hardball will vary somewhat from one system to another. Neither is inherently superior to the other; both do very well.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

jupiterboy

Re: Tighten up plan. Please comment and suggest.
« Reply #5 on: 22 Dec 2014, 06:40 pm »
Hi, jupiterboy. Square Fat Dots are ideal between monitor and stand. For the amp, Big Tall are usually needed only if you need the extra height to lift the component free of the stock feet; if you remove the stock feet, regular Extra-Firm Tenderfoot isolation feet will do just as well.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

Thank you sir. That puts a finer point on it. I'll double check the Skylan stand feet thread.

Quiet Earth

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Re: Tighten up plan. Please comment and suggest.
« Reply #6 on: 22 Dec 2014, 10:31 pm »
Something else you might try if the speaker stands are filled with sand (or a mix of lead and sand) . . .

Place 4 small pea-sized balls of Blu Tak between the speaker and stand. Press the speaker down firmly against the stand, squishing the blu-Tak into place. You should now be able to gently push the top front of the speaker and it will stick to the stand. It will not topple over. This method couples the speaker to the dead-weighted stand, and the stand can do its job better. It's worth a try to see if you prefer it this way vs. isolating the speaker from the stand. (No right or wrong, just different.)

Now, place the 4 big black dots under each stand between the stand and the wood floor. This will isolate the stand from the wood floor.  I guess the Gliders would be an upgrade from the dots, but the idea of Blu-taking the speaker to the stand remains the same.

Blu-Tak is cheap, give it a try and report back.

jupiterboy

Re: Tighten up plan. Please comment and suggest.
« Reply #7 on: 23 Dec 2014, 12:07 am »
Something else you might try if the speaker stands are filled with sand (or a mix of lead and sand) . . .

Place 4 small pea-sized balls of Blu Tak between the speaker and stand. Press the speaker down firmly against the stand, squishing the blu-Tak into place. You should now be able to gently push the top front of the speaker and it will stick to the stand. It will not topple over. This method couples the speaker to the dead-weighted stand, and the stand can do its job better. It's worth a try to see if you prefer it this way vs. isolating the speaker from the stand. (No right or wrong, just different.)

Now, place the 4 big black dots under each stand between the stand and the wood floor. This will isolate the stand from the wood floor.  I guess the Gliders would be an upgrade from the dots, but the idea of Blu-taking the speaker to the stand remains the same.

Blu-Tak is cheap, give it a try and report back.

The Skylan stands have a metal fitting that sits on top of the top surface, so I need clearance for that. I’m using little corner cushions provided by the manufacturer, but also some Blu-Tak. The stands are filled with rice at the moment, although I could replace that with metal shot I can buy bulk.

I am interested in how the isolation provided by the square dots will change the coupling (and sound), but I am sure they will give good clearance. I could put them down on the speaker stand using the adhesive version and be sure to keep the finish of the cabinets off of the metal fittings.

I have dots on the bottom of my turntable feet and the results are very good.

Herbie

Re: Tighten up plan. Please comment and suggest.
« Reply #8 on: 23 Dec 2014, 12:15 am »
Blu-Tak is cheap, and also not a very good material sonically, having resonance issues that affect linearity and cause other sonic anomalies. In the case of "try it and report back," our customers have "been there, done that" repeatedly over the years, consistently finding Fat Dots to be a better option with speaker stands, and also a worthwhile upgrade from Sobothane pucks that some speaker stand manufacturers provide. Or, "Sticky" Fat Dots if you need to adhere the speakers. Placing Blu-Tak between a monitor speaker and stand does not couple the speaker to the stand, anyway (well, it sort of does, depending on what your definition of "coupling" is).

Rope caulk, available at hardware stores and cheap, can be used in this way, with much better sonic results than Blu-Tak. Rope caulk (Mortite is one brand name) is very sonically neutral and has many potential uses with any audio system.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

jupiterboy

Re: Tighten up plan. Please comment and suggest.
« Reply #9 on: 23 Dec 2014, 02:24 am »
Blu-Tak is cheap, and also not a very good material sonically, having resonance issues that affect linearity and cause other sonic anomalies. In the case of "try it and report back," our customers have "been there, done that" repeatedly over the years, consistently finding Fat Dots to be a better option with speaker stands, and also a worthwhile upgrade from Sobothane pucks that some speaker stand manufacturers provide. Or, "Sticky" Fat Dots if you need to adhere the speakers. Placing Blu-Tak between a monitor speaker and stand does not couple the speaker to the stand, anyway (well, it sort of does, depending on what your definition of "coupling" is).

Rope caulk, available at hardware stores and cheap, can be used in this way, with much better sonic results than Blu-Tak. Rope caulk (Mortite is one brand name) is very sonically neutral and has many potential uses with any audio system.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

Good to know. Thanks for the tip.

Question about the feet—you have a wrench listed, but the image does not appear to have a secondary nut to tighten against the surface of the stand. What is the wrench used for. Also, do you ever have a 25mm stud on an M6 foot? I use a bit of play to get them level on the old wood floors.

Herbie

Re: Tighten up plan. Please comment and suggest.
« Reply #10 on: 23 Dec 2014, 02:38 am »
Though not shown in the picture, the product description mentions: "With jam nut to lock-in height adjustment."

Use of the jam nut is optional, as is the thin wrench, which is used to adjust for height and leveling. The jam nut locks into place against the threaded insert of the stand or speaker cabinet.

Though not featured with the website listing or kept in stock, M6 x 25mm Threaded Stud Glider is available by special order. M6 x 20mm should give you plenty of leeway for leveling and/or a little tilt, though.

Update: M6 x 25mm Threaded Stud Glider has been added to our standard lineup.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab
« Last Edit: 24 Dec 2014, 01:43 am by Herbie »

jupiterboy

Re: Tighten up plan. Please comment and suggest.
« Reply #11 on: 23 Dec 2014, 02:58 am »
Though not featured with the website listing or kept in stock, M6 x 25mm Threaded Stud Glider is available by special order. M6 x 20mm should give you plenty of leeway for leveling and/or a little tilt, though.

The extra five mm would ensure that I could use the nuts. (Did I just write that?) I don't notice the current feet getting out of adjustment, but I do imagine that the threads could be a source of chatter/vibration, and a nut would keep all that snug. Not that my imaginings translate to physical fact.

I would be interested in any additional cost for the extended 6M 25mm feet.

Herbie

Re: Tighten up plan. Please comment and suggest.
« Reply #12 on: 23 Dec 2014, 03:09 am »
No additional cost, just might take a few extra days before shipment. You can order the 20mm Gliders from the website and then just mention in the "comments" section of the order form that you want 25mm length.

(When used without jam nuts, Threaded Stud Gliders are usually threaded snugly all the way in to avoid any potential for vibration. Gliders have a slight "give" and compression to them, so adjusting for leveling is often not necessary.)

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

Quiet Earth

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Re: Tighten up plan. Please comment and suggest.
« Reply #13 on: 23 Dec 2014, 03:22 am »
In the case of "try it and report back," our customers have "been there, done that" repeatedly over the years, consistently finding Fat Dots to be a better option with speaker stands, and also a worthwhile upgrade from Sobothane pucks that some speaker stand manufacturers provide. Or, "Sticky" Fat Dots if you need to adhere the speakers.


Ok, fair enough. But for the record, I am also one of your happy customers. I have big dots, little dots, regular tenderfeet, tall tenderfeet, isocups with balls, supersonic stabilizers, and various tube dampers. I like them all.  :thumb:

I use Blu-Tak between my Audio Note speakers and the sand filled stands that they sit on because that's what the manufacturer provided and recommended. Believe it or not, I actually like the results very much even though Blu-Tak isn't high-tech audiophile stuff. I also love the fact that you cannot tip the speakers off of the stands no matter how hard you try.

I only mentioned Blu-Tak as something to try because it is cheap, it is reversible, and it doesn't eliminate the need for your products elsewhere.

But now I am curious. If Blu-Tak gives good initial results between the speaker and stand, would a thin sticky dot be an improvement? How thin can I get the dot? Will it stick the speaker to the stand as well as Blu-Tak? A super thin sticky dot is something that I would be willing to try, but only if it holds the speaker to the stand as well as Blu-Tak.

Sorry for hi-jacking the thread...... :oops:

Herbie

Re: Tighten up plan. Please comment and suggest.
« Reply #14 on: 23 Dec 2014, 03:41 am »
Hi, Quiet Earth. Rope caulk isn't high-tech audio stuff either, but works very well sonically and is cheap. It's more audio-system friendly, sonically, than Blu-Tak, and virtually always a better option, as are Herbie's Audio Lab Fat Dots. My concern is always to help bring out the best inherent potential of the audio gear; Blu-Tak isn't bad of course, but we can always do better. Every vibrational environment is unique and system synergies vary, so there might be some times when Blu-Tak, rubber, Sorbothane, or other material that usually doesn't do as well might do better. Or is simply good enough for the listener's ears.

Small "Thin" Sticky Fat Dots are 1/8" thick. Sticky Fat Dots will hold the speakers as firmly as Blu-Tak and with most cabinet finishes actually a little more securely than Blu-Tak. Fat Dots are most likely to be an improvement over the Blu-Tack, but if your current configuration of filled stands and Blu-Tak work very well for you, there might not be any real need to change to something else.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

Quiet Earth

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Re: Tighten up plan. Please comment and suggest.
« Reply #15 on: 23 Dec 2014, 03:52 am »
Thanks! That's good to know and I am always willing to keep trying stuff.  :D

jupiterboy

Re: Tighten up plan. Please comment and suggest.
« Reply #16 on: 23 Dec 2014, 01:53 pm »
Ordered. Still on the fence about the tenderfeet. The bottom of the amp is vented, so I want to keep at least as much clearance as stock, and I wonder about the size/stability of the taller tenderfeet. I may need something that is larger that will support the unit by the corners, which are the most stable part of the construction.

Herbie

Re: Tighten up plan. Please comment and suggest.
« Reply #17 on: 23 Dec 2014, 02:14 pm »
Being free-standing, Tenderfoot isolation feet are totally versatile regarding placement. One at each corner of the amp chassis or at the edges should do very well, very stable. With Big Tall Extra-Firm Tenderfeet there's nothing to be concerned about regarding stability. They're just slightly over 1" tall--if you need more height, you can give them a boost by placing on Big Fat Dots, ceramic tile, felt pads, Post-It Pads, or other material. Iso-Cups w/SuperSonic Hardballs, 1.4" tall, is another excellent option for the amp.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

jupiterboy

Re: Tighten up plan. Please comment and suggest.
« Reply #18 on: 23 Dec 2014, 02:52 pm »
Being free-standing, Tenderfoot isolation feet are totally versatile regarding placement. One at each corner of the amp chassis or at the edges should do very well, very stable. With Big Tall Extra-Firm Tenderfeet there's nothing to be concerned about regarding stability. They're just slightly over 1" tall--if you need more height, you can give them a boost by placing on Big Fat Dots, ceramic tile, felt pads, Post-It Pads, or other material. Iso-Cups w/SuperSonic Hardballs, 1.4" tall, is another excellent option for the amp.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

Part of the challenge is the tightness of the rack. I had considered tenderfeet under a wood block, but that would require keeping the stock feet, which you have suggested is generally a bad idea.

There is a back corner, where I find it very difficult to position a free footer, because of the weight of the amp and because of poor access.

The bottom of the amp is also, IMO, a weak point of the design, as it screws into the sturdy frame around the edge, the same edge I would like to utilize in supporting the amp. Any support placed under the amp, in contact with the bottom cover of the amp, probably needs to have a larger surface area to distribute the weight. Don't know if that is making sense.

Something like those neoprene cork blocks, in terms of shape/size, would work very well, but I have no idea how well those actual devices actually work.

Herbie

Re: Tighten up plan. Please comment and suggest.
« Reply #19 on: 23 Dec 2014, 03:22 pm »
Amplifiers often have bottom plates that are too thin to support the amplifier's weight without bending. Tenderfeet placed under the very corners/edges where the chassis is rigid and strong will support the amp and usually provide best sonic results. You usually don't have to remove the stock feet; just lift the component up enough to slide the Tenderfeet (or Big Tall Tenderfeet) under the chassis alongside the stock feet at or near the corners, one corner at a time. At the back corner where you have poor access, you might pry up the corner with a stick or something and slip the Tenderfoot into place or with some ingenuity find another solution.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab