[Rob Babcock]

You're absolutely right, DVV.  Most guys over there know that, but it's a strange mix.  For some reason, they get an immense amount of newbs mixed in with the gearhead set.

The main contention over there is that anytime someone says, for instance, that they prefer the sound of amp A over amp B, several engineers that frequent the forum will respond with a blizzard of posts & links "proving" that in DBT after DBT, amps have all been shown to sound the same.  Ditto for cables, etc etc.  Anyone who likes tubes is lambasted as a flat-earther, too- it's considered a euphonic coloration and bad engineering.

While this has nothing to do with specs, per se, most of the time your hardcore objectivists worship specs and ABX-style testing.  Of course, that's a whole 'nuther can of worms!

[nathanm]

The hardcore engineers are very important, and there is great need for that approach, but audio is supposed to be fun.  We're not building bridges here that will collapse and kill people if you 'screw up' the specs.  For example, there's no absolute "correct" way to experience Amy Grant's "Baby Baby", the important thing is to find the measurements and listening evaluations which best bring the magic of her stunningly technical and life-altering music home to YOU.  If that means a 30db rise at 915.6 KHz and a slew rate of 167.5 milliphongs, then so be it.

Are you referring to Audioholics by chance, Rob?

Doesn't some company actually make an ABX switching device?  That'd be a swell group purchase for one of the regional groups I'd think.

[Rob Babcock]

Yep, Nathan.  The very site.  It's an odd mix of total newbs (with 25 posts per day to the effects of, "Gee.  I want some speakers.  What should I buy? ) and geeky engineers.  The place was a lot more laid back, say, 8 months ago, but it's becoming overrun with pure objectivists lately.

For the record, I to tend towards the objectivists school of thought.  But I also feel the tests we use & the things we measure miss things.  And probably most importantly, I agree:  this should be fun.  We argue about which amp sounds better, even when there isn't really much difference, because we enjoy it.  

I have my own pet peeves, which for the moment I'll keep to myself.     But for the most part, if you ain't breaking any laws or hurting anyone, and you respect others right to their opinion, I have no problem with $10,000 tube amps or $100,000 speakers.

[Rob Babcock]

BTW, I almost never bring up DBT here- it's just not a part of the AC culture.  There are some things I'd reallllly like to do that with (eg CD-R vs the original pressed CD, black CD-R vs silver, etc), and it would be cool to have an ABX comparator (or something like it).

Funny thing is you can make a comment on something like cables and piss everyone off.  I've been criticized for even buying Zu by the "all cable is alike guys" and gotten hate mail from the cable fetishists likening me to Mao or Stalin for insinuating maybe some of their expensive cables wouldn't outperform lamp cord in a DBT!  

[WEEZ]

I think that specifications (from a user standpoint) might be a starting point to narrow down the field a little for some. For example; my speakers are acoustic suspension (highly damped) so an amplifier with less damping seems to be a better match. Yet, not all amps with lower damping factors (such as tube amps) sound the same with my speakers. Some sound terrible; likely due to other factors.

What I would like to know is why cable manufacturers (actually marketers) won't publish specs on there wires. Those that do (Cardas; Kimber; and a few others) at least allow the buyer a hint as to the sound characteristics one might expect. When the company simply says 'my wires allow deep bass, open and clear mids, and great highs; that sounds like snake oil to me. (especially when they look a lot like the cables that sell for 90% less).

So, what I'm trying to say is- specifications might help to focus a buyer on a range of products to audition, but the proof is still in the listening.

So any way, I'm between a 2 and a 3. (I think)

WEEZ

[DVV]

BTW, I almost never bring up DBT here- it's just not a part of the AC culture.  There are some things I'd reallllly like to do that with (eg CD-R vs the original pressed CD, black CD-R vs silver, etc), and it would be cool to have an ABX comparator (or something like it).

Excuse my ignorance, but what's a "DBT"?

As for different media, they really DO sound different. I did a test for my own sake some years ago, making a copy of the same image file to different media, and ended up with VERY different sounding copies. Some were really muffled and sounded like the music was coming froma deep barrel, others were much nearer to the original. Consequently, I discovered that my burner (was a TEAC-55S, SCSI, is now a Pioneer DVD-106) prefers Philips Silver Edition (by far the best copy), followed by a Mitsumi Music CD.

Funny thing is you can make a comment on something like cables and piss everyone off.  I've been criticized for even buying Zu by the "all cable is alike guys" and gotten hate mail from the cable fetishists likening me to Mao or  ...

This is just plain old intolerance to difference of opinion. I went through it, just like I think everybody had a bash in with it sometime. Intolerance is no stranger to me, but what regularly fascinates me how people will respond when you tell them they shouldn't buy Ecosse's cable for app. $500, but rather the original Neotech cable for $120 with the same RCA plugs, in fact same everything but the name on the cable - had I been there in person, I would have been burnt at the stake for the blackest of blasphemy.

Same goes for your comment on tube people being called flat earthers. Bad engineering? Which idiot said that? You use tubes and you're a bad engineer? Call their bluff - it's easy to spit all over people, but if they think it's that easy, why don't they make it right? That usualy shuts them up.

But Rob, there's much psychology at work here, even if I am encroaching on Nate's territory now. How would you feel to hear that some say $200 cable outperforms your brand new, famous name $2K cable? Or that your new $2K cable is in fact a rebadged $200 cable? Or that your wonderful, brand new, $10K power amp, which measures just perfect, simply sounds awful, unexciting, uninspiring, as compared to a $2K tube job, which measures terribly and can't do more than 30 watts into 8 ohms, and that with 10% THD?

And I haven't even said yet that 80% of self-declared audiophiles are in fact tone deaf. I think I better not say it, somebody will start getting a lynching posse together ...

O tempora, o mores!

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

...
For the record, I to tend towards the objectivists school of thought. But I also feel the tests we use & the things we measure miss things. And probably most importantly, I agree: this should be fun. We argue about which amp sounds better, even when there isn't really much difference, because we enjoy it.

I beg to disagree here, Rob. Amps, now that you mentioned them, can sound incredibly different. And I need go no further than my own home, which, disregarding my own, has four commercal amps. Three are in service, coupled to three different types of speakers, one is in stand-by.

Yamaha's AX-592, now 7-8 years old, has the power, and while rated at 100W/8 ohms, it will really push over 550W into 2 ohms in short peaks, a most creditable result for an amp which cost less than $400 locally. But it has a cold, uninvolving sound, it sounds like it really couldn't be bothered to work it all out.

Harman/Kardon's 6550, now 11 years of age, rated at 50/70W into 8/4 ohms, is far more analytical and far less sterile. It does like to bother with it, and tries hard. It's far from perfect, but it's a very even design, its advantages and flaws are spread around evenly. The power issue is of no consequence, it drives the venerable AR94s on a daily basis without any problems until it's pushed near its limits, when it starts to come unstuck.

Harman/Kardon's 680 was their top product in 1999, when ti was purchased. It's rated at 85/130W into 8/4 ohms, and will deliver 572 watts into 2 ohms in peaks. It's a true dual mono design, with nice things such as the ALPS volume control, ELNA filter caps and by far the best and most sophisticated discrete FET buffering I have ever seen. It's warm, it's lush, and its bass and mid drive energy are hard to equal, let alone beat. But its treble leaves something to be desired.

Lastly, the Karan Acoustics KA-i180. This is 2x180/250W into 8/4 job, with a massive 680 VA toroidal transformer, fast rectifier diodes, true dual mono, AND it has a sculptured 1" thich aluminium fascia. Voicing such as I have never heard anywhere else before, absolutely stunning - BUT, its bass is not up to H/K 680, and its damping factor is on the low side. It doesn't like JBL Ti600 floorstanders at all, which is, to me, a definite minus, this prefernce or lack of it. Yet, it's a joy to listen to and own, despite the price tag (I think it's around $5K in the US).

After checking this out in three rooms, with three systems, I think I can call this my conclusive deductions. And having designed some of my own, I am only too well aware of the difference between measurements and actual sound.

So, I should stay clear of Audioholics, right? If I want to live?

Cheers,
DVV

[lonewolfny42]

DBT....double blind test (think thats what he means)....

[Rob Babcock]

Yeah, I mean double blind test.  But you misunderstood me, DVV- I didn't mean to imply that amps do sound the same.  That's merely an example.  A better example would be arguing about two cables that are, in fact, the same wire & termination with two different brands heat shrinked on them (I've long assumed that of all the brands of cables out there, probably 85% of them are made up of the same 20-25 different models of wires).

At any rate, let's say that you had 5 amps that you were sure each sounded very different.  Then let's hypothetically say than under controlled level matched DBT conditions, you were utterly unable to discern any differences between them.  What would that ultimately say?  You'd quite likely still have your favorites, and depending upon what kind of guy you are, you might still think they sounded different.  Hell, maybe they do.

And there'd still be build quality, features, warranty & reliability issues, company track record (ie will the still be around for service in 10 years?).

Anyway, a hardcore subjectivist would probably make an emotional appeal- something about lies, damn lies & statistics, etc etc.  A diehard objectivist would say if you can't prove it under DBT then it simply cannot be there.  I'm somewhere in the middle.  For example, what about listener fatigue?  Most DBTs I've seen don't acknowledge that.  They can test for things we can consciously percieve, but what about things we unconsciously percieve?  I believe ABX tests are very good for revealing some things, but I'll concede that they produce only data points, ie a positive or negative result based on those subjects testing that variable at that time.

[Rob Babcock]

BTW, yeah, you'd probably want to stay clear!   Honestly, the guys that run the site are good guys, and pretty knowledgeable.  They themselves aren't on a crusade to say all stuff is alike, but they do have a mad-on for what they percieve as "Cable Snake Oil" hawkers.  It's some of the membership that gets a little overzealous.

They do have some good reviews and articles, plus there's some good guys on the forum over there.  Er, and I'm supposed to get a free DVD-A & a AH T-shirt for modding!   I'm such a whore- and a cheap one, too!

[gonefishin]

Edit change:

    1) Total faith in specs. If I can't measure it or verify it blind, it doesn't exist. Period.
  2) The measured specs give me a good idea how something will sound, but they don't tell the whole story.
  3) I read the measurements to see how well something is engineered, but specs can't describe the sound. There's simply too many things we can't quantify yet.
  4) I rarely pay much attention to stats, maybe just power ratings, amp damping factors, etc. I tend to trust my ears more than the specs.
  5) None. Measurements are irrelevant. The only valid instruments are my ears.

  6) I read the measurements to see some areas of the components performance.  But more important to me than just a few areas of performance is the design philosophy/qualifications of the designer.  Does he/she appear to be qualified to design this component?  What thoughts have they put into building the component...not only the objective measurement criteria, but also component selection and subjective performance that meets not only their objective requirements...but also their subjective goals as well.



   I suppose my problem has been that I didn't find a selection from the above that I agreed with.  Three came close...but I think some of the areas that we (audiophiles) may not be able to quantify, engineers and designers may be able to correlate to a specific circuit or component selection.  I would vote for number 6



   
 

    dan

[Rob Babcock]

Well, I really didn't want to change the poll questions after a couple dozen guys have answered it!  

[DVV]

... At any rate, let's say that you had 5 amps that you were sure each sounded very different. Then let's hypothetically say than under controlled level matched DBT conditions, you were utterly unable to discern any differences between them. What would that ultimately say? You'd quite likely still have your favorites, and depending upon what kind of guy you are, you might still think they sounded different. Hell, maybe they do.  ...

Odd you should mention that. I had some doubts about myself, so I decided to chek myself out first, before I published a short review on Neotech cables. My fear was that I have been using van den Hul's D102Mk3 for so long, I might have lost discerning power.

So, I had my son switch cables on me in a blind (to me) random sequence. Out of 10 times, I missed out one (I wasn't sure), mixing up vdH and Neotech's OFC moncrystal copper cable, but 10/10 on whether it was silver or any copper, and 10/10 between the two silver cables. Frankly, that's better than I expected, or had any right to hope for. Especially discerning between the two silver cables. But  it was fun.

What you mentioned above did happen to me several times, with different items - cables, amps and CD players. And yes, I did go for the "trusty" old companies I was well acquainted with, except in case of cables, where I gave up MIT for vdH without batting an eye. That's called "consumer inertia", and boils down to why change if it sounds the same? Another example would be my H/K 680, which sounds about the same as NAD's amp at the time, identical power levels, prices down to a +/-1% difference, and despite my high regard for NAD, I bought the H/K. Realistically, I know I would not have regretted the NAD either, a friend has it and I have had the plaseure of checking it out, but I had good experience with H/K thus far, so it "had" to be my choice.

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

BTW, yeah, you'd probably want to stay clear!   Honestly, the guys that run the site are good guys, and pretty knowledgeable.  They themselves aren't on a crusade to say all stuff is alike, but they do have a mad-on for what they percieve as "Cable Snake Oil" hawkers.  It's some of the membership that gets a little overzealous.

I can dig that! Hey, my rope's good'n'ready, let's string some of them up. (I just went through an emotional experience watching Kurt Russel and Sam Elliot fight it out in "Tombstone", so right now, I'm in a gun slinger mood. )

But seriously, I too have a strong distaste for snake oil peddlers, and there seems to be an awful lot of them these days. Of course, distaste is one thing, but overzealous is another, no need to overdo it.

Point taken, Rob.

Cheers,
DVV

[nathanm]

Audioholics is a nice group of no-B.S. types.  Admittedly I don't read it all that often, but last I checked the ratio of skeptics to believers was in favor of the skeptics.  So it can be refreshing to read that end of things.  Of course, you don't get the banner-free goodness of this site.

[Rob Babcock]

Now we have to deal with friggin' AD LINKS!     That's the most Satanic annoyance I've ever seen!   What could be worse than ranting about how shitty Bose speakers are only to have the name hyperlinked to a Bose dealer!   Plus the forum runs like dogshit with dozens of script errors.

At least Gene tells me he's ditching the ad links.  I don't really mind the banner ads, to be honest.  The DeSalle's are quitting their day jobs to devote themselves to the AH site, providing they can make of go of it.  Man, what could be better than doing your own gear site for a living?  So I don't begrudge them the banner ads.

I'll admit, I probably would agree with you on a lot of things, NathanM.  Particularly cables.  But I also know that even after twenty-some odd years of following this hobby, there's a lot I don't know.  I don't like the hardcore spec guys trying to cram their "dogma" down everyone's throat.

It's like the old joke: two politicians are sitting at a table engaged in a heated debate.  Finally one of them jumps up and say, "Now that's a damn lie!"  The other politician says, "Of course it is, but just hear me out!"   Some of the things we think we hear are real, and some are probably imaginary.  But debating them is the essense of our hobby.  To say otherwise just takes all the fun out of it.