NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400

Old_School · « **Reply #60 on:** 18 Nov 2014, 09:55 pm »

From the article Julf linked:

Quote

On nCore Stidsen says, “We have our own nCore module developed in close co-operation with Hypex. It is based on the 400 not the 1200, but this is not a qualitative difference it only affects power output. We can do this because we will build and sell a lot of units. The 1200 was developed primarily for the pro market where huge power is required.”

So it's "based on the 400" but clearly not the DIY NC400.

RUR · « **Reply #61 on:** 18 Nov 2014, 10:47 pm »

Not M22, but M27 amp images (side view) may be found in this youtube vid around the 1:15 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFPo-aypFgM&list=UUuqicWX8bu2XPFLFngGRDlg

and M22 internal in this youtube vid around the 1:30 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRs1qCZi818&list=UUuqicWX8bu2XPFLFngGRDlg

cab · « **Reply #62 on:** 19 Nov 2014, 12:42 am »

The new Merrill amp is said to be based on the nc1200, but isn't the nc1200. Since the nc400 and nc1200 are based on the same tech/design, one could also say it is built on the nc400 tech. Sounds like marketing to me....I would have simply said it is built using the ncore tech....Guess it sounds better to say the $2500 amp is based on the same module used in the $10,000 product.

What I wonder is why buy the nc1200 based amp when this new amp, with nearly the same power, is only $2500 or 1/4 the price?

hifial · « **Reply #63 on:** 19 Nov 2014, 03:26 am »

Sorry cab but you are mistaken. The new Taranis Amp by Merrill Audio is NOT based on the NC400 at all but is on the NC1200. Nothing to do with the NC400. NAD's approach and Merrill Audio's are two separate paths.

Just like the NC400 amp (Ncore) sounds different then an NC1200 amp (again Ncore). So just saying it is based on Ncore, when it IS based on the NC1200, would be ambiguous and not fully describe the potential this amp has.

Why buy this amp over the Veritas? Well the answer is, it is based on the NC1200, it is not a NC1200. So there will be a difference. Just like there is a difference between the NC400 and the NC1200.

cab · « **Reply #64 on:** 19 Nov 2014, 03:59 am »

Look at the specs and graphs. The nc400 and the nc1200 are both ncore. They have the same name, the same theory and the same designer. Is the nc1200 a scaled up nc400 or the nc400 a scaled down nc1200? If the nc1200 came first, then the nc400 can be said to be based on nc1200 tech as well...Bottom line, fundamentally, Ncore is ncore...

Selarom · « **Reply #65 on:** 19 Nov 2014, 04:58 am »

The Taranis is very interesting but I question the 130db SNR. I think it is 120 right?

The mirror finish i dont like at all

hifial · « **Reply #66 on:** 19 Nov 2014, 05:12 am »

The SNR is 120. He knows he has to change the number on th site.

Cab, that is like saying that all Pass Labs that are class A and of the same design class are all the same. Just because it is similar does not make them the same.

But lets agree to disagree.

cab · « **Reply #67 on:** 19 Nov 2014, 05:23 am »

The UcD and ncore are similar but different. Ncore is ncore. Your class a analogy is false. But yes, let's agree to disagree.

pablolie · « **Reply #68 on:** 29 Dec 2014, 05:18 pm »

i have been enjoying the NAD M22 for about 3 weeks now. It's paired with Totem Element Fire - awesome stuff. I have also paired it with excellent KEF LS50.

i had (well still have) a Creek Destiny Power amplifier before, which is excellent as well. But the NAD M22 clearly provides that decisive ounce of additional definition and separation of individual instruments all throughout the spectrum. If anyone in the area wants to take measurements etc (and they know what they're doing) I'll gladly volunteer my piece. Although I assume as soon as an audio publication verifies its immense virtues it will become quite popular.

Phil · « **Reply #69 on:** 1 Jan 2015, 04:40 pm »

Quote from: pablolie on 29 Dec 2014, 05:18 pm

i have been enjoying the NAD M22 for about 3 weeks now. It's paired with Totem Element Fire - awesome stuff. I have also paired it with excellent KEF LS50.

Pablolie,
Care to say more comparing this amp to others? I've sent you a PM with specific questions.

pablolie · « **Reply #70 on:** 1 Jan 2015, 05:24 pm »

I have compared it to:

1. Accuphase E-306v http://www.accuphase.com/historys/e-306v_e.htm
2. Creek Destiny Power Amp http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/creek_destiny_e.html

I entered the comparison having used the Creek Destiny with KEF LS50 as my main system for the last year, since most of the other stuff was in storage. I got the NAD M22 and the Totem Element Fire at the same time.

I burned this new system in for 10 days while I was away.

When I got back I compared the three systems by changing the banana speaker cables (Analysis Plus Black Mesh Oval 9) while listening to a few songs I used as personal references: Herbie Hancock "The River" with Corinne Bailey on vocals (24/192), Kevin Mahogany "Never can say goodbye" from Pride&Joy (16/44), Karl Munchinger's version of Pachelbel's Canon (16/44), Bill Evans' "Detour Ahead (Take 2)" out of Waltz for Debby (another unnecessary 24/192), and Daniel Hope's "I Giorni" out of Spheres (16/44). All FLAC.

In a nutshell, the NAD M22 beats the other 2 by a clear margin when it comes to accuracy and dynamics with a good recording. The NAD M22 and Totem Element Fire absolutely amaze with instrumental/orchestral music. Even when not listened loudly the dynamic, analytical yet non-tiring presentation is amazing. The Accuphase 306 is a phenomenal amp (I don't think I can part with it), and more forgiving of poorer recordings (which actually includes Bill Evans "Waltz for Debby". The NAD M22 kind of exposes this legendary recording's somewhat crude mixing, while the Accuphase blends the stage a bit more.

With voices, I think I actually prefer the KEF LS50 and Creek Destiny combo, but I think this is more about the KEF vs Totem rather than anything else. I need to do some speaker comparisons which I haven't gotten around to for now. Voices seem to have receded a bit to the back. Which is great if you want to hear more to the band, not so good if you want to just focus on the singer or lyrics. It's ever so slight, and may have to do with the KEF cleverly boosting something, but that is a separate topic that I don't think has anything to do with the M22.

The M22 combines the rare ability to provide superb analytics ("there, a mouse just farted in the right rear corner of the studio") while staying eminently musical and non-tiring. Bad recordings can get a tad tiring though, especially after you have listened to a few good ones.

The Accuphase E-306v was my amplifier reference. Until the M22 arrived.

pablolie · « **Reply #71 on:** 1 Jan 2015, 05:30 pm »

I should point out that I listen in a room that is about 35x16, the speakers are in the middle of the long wall, about 1.5 ft off the rear wall. Bookshelf speakers work much better than my old standers in here. And the system has to be compact (space wise) and blend in visually, as you may be able to tell from the pic. The M22 is phenomenal in its ability to pack amazing audio bang into a sleek, small package. That was the main reason I acquired the Creek Destiny, which previously was the king of great audio per dollar per cubic inch. The Creek Destiny remains a fantastic bargain to anyone that can score them online (I got mine on Ebay for less than $800) - it sounds impeccable, but is somewhat impaired in middle resolution compared to these other two.

pablolie · « **Reply #72 on:** 1 Jan 2015, 05:32 pm »

PS: I forgot to mention - the DAC is Benchmark's DAC2HGC. I feed it FLACs from a Squeezebox Touch. The Benchmark also acts as a very capable little preamp.

Phil · « **Reply #73 on:** 1 Jan 2015, 07:13 pm »

Thanks for all the helpful information. Introducing the Ncore 400 DIY into my system had me re-evaluating my DAC, which was a few years old. Not that the system sounded bad, just that I could hear that, for example, the old DAC really couldn't play high resolution well at all.

Other things that have mattered: 1) using a Furutech flux50 inline filter after the power cord (plugs into the IEC socket) to clean the power since the Ncore didn't like other power conditioning I tried, and 2) a spatial audio VB2 thingie after the ICs (plugs into the balanced input of the amp). This also showed that there is a lot of EMI in my house. The Ncore, unlike my previous amp, doesn't cover up that noise. Of course, remove the noise and a transparent amplifier reveals your source, good and bad. Perhaps NAD has added features that address the power and input noise so that it can sound good in all environments.

pablolie · « **Reply #74 on:** 1 Jan 2015, 07:57 pm »

Thanks a lot for the information.

I use an Audio Power Ultra 112 (http://www.audiopower.com/newsite/pw112.html) which seems to work quite well with the M22, as it always has with other equipment. But I shall definitely check out the Furutech.

Any theories out there as to why most power conditioners-filters don't work well with the Ncore? I had heard it before and it was a mild cause of concern.

a.wayne · « **Reply #75 on:** 1 Jan 2015, 08:54 pm »

Well according to NADspecs , the M22 is consideably more powerfull than the Accuphase and small speakers as all speakers with avg sensitivity benefit from big power , more dynamics and a sense of ease is usually the payoff...

Considering the savings in metal and parts I'm really shocked that most class-d offerings today are even more than past linear amp( not directed at NAD in particular, but seeing 12K plus from some with mini boxes is well ..) offerings from these companies , good profit margins abound ..

As to NCore , i would speculate their power supply is doing a good job keeping out the nasties .....

Julf · « **Reply #76 on:** 2 Jan 2015, 02:21 pm »

Quote from: pablolie on 1 Jan 2015, 07:57 pm

Any theories out there as to why most power conditioners-filters don't work well with the Ncore? I had heard it before and it was a mild cause of concern.

The nc400's benefit from a low-impedance, high-peak-current mains feed. Power conditioners and filters tend to add series impedance/resistance. T or pi filters also introduce ground paths for HF noise - something Hypex has specifically warned about.

Julf · « **Reply #77 on:** 2 Jan 2015, 02:25 pm »

Quote from: Phil on 1 Jan 2015, 07:13 pm

The Ncore, unlike my previous amp, doesn't cover up that noise.

That runs counter to my experiences. I have a very noisy and unstable mains (some of the graphs introduce nausea), but my ncores (fed by smps600's) don't seem to mind. The fast and efficient feedback architecture of the nc400 seems to be able to correct out anything that makes it through the smps...

Phil · « **Reply #78 on:** 2 Jan 2015, 09:18 pm »

Quote from: Julf on 2 Jan 2015, 02:25 pm

That runs counter to my experiences. I have a very noisy and unstable mains (some of the graphs introduce nausea), but my ncores (fed by smps600's) don't seem to mind. The fast and efficient feedback architecture of the nc400 seems to be able to correct out anything that makes it through the smps...

That is interesting, Julf. Perhaps it is further down the chain: how my speakers deal with any noise?

It doesn't really matter. We all tweak our particular environments for what is, to us, optimal sound. It would be interesting to know how our listening preferences are, or are not, related to our hearing acuity.
If we did know, an app that maps the sensitivity of our ears to particular equipment would save lots of time and money.

Julf · « **Reply #79 on:** 3 Jan 2015, 09:56 am »

Quote from: Phil on 2 Jan 2015, 09:18 pm

If we did know, an app that maps the sensitivity of our ears to particular equipment would save lots of time and money.

Indeed! But then again, would the people who refuse to believe audio and electronics professionals suddenly believe an app?