NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400

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lynhnn

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Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
« Reply #100 on: 1 Feb 2015, 07:24 am »
I have a NAD on order and have 60 days to compare it to my DIY Ncore 400.   

The NAD is larger and heavier (including internal heat sinks, which mine does not have) and includes the NAD special sauce.  Will be interesting to hear if there is a difference that I prefer.

I returned the NAD and love to see your results against the DIY ncores. M22 is nicely built and looks very classy. I don't like the touch to power thing but it is personal taste.

pablolie

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Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
« Reply #101 on: 1 Feb 2015, 06:03 pm »

indeed the power button on the M22 is quite erratic. on the other hand, i never use it. the M22 seems to draw little power when not playing music. it also has the auto-standby feature (which i have recently turned on to save a little power), and it warms up and sounds great very quickly. i have never heard an nCore-based DIY amp, but have heard those tend to take a while to warm up.

OzarkTom

Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
« Reply #102 on: 1 Feb 2015, 07:00 pm »
I returned the NAD and love to see your results against the DIY ncores. M22 is nicely built and looks very classy. I don't like the touch to power thing but it is personal taste.

How many hours are you putting on these amps? Many amps, especially SS, takes at least 200 hours to break-in and Class D amps needs to be left on 24 hours every day.

pablolie

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Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
« Reply #103 on: 1 Feb 2015, 08:43 pm »
... Many amps, especially SS, takes at least 200 hours to break-in and Class D amps needs to be left on 24 hours every day.

indeed. i don't listen to equipment unless it's played music for about 2 weeks, pretty much leave it on all the time when i leave the house. it probably has just as much to do with my ears adjusting to something "different".

in my case it was compounded by the fact i got the M22 and new speakers at the exact same time, and the combo definitely needed several hundred hours. initially i was quite underwhelmed. that has since changed and i think the combo phenomenal.

Julf

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Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
« Reply #104 on: 2 Feb 2015, 07:49 am »
Class D amps needs to be left on 24 hours every day.

No, they don't, and it might not be a good idea to do so, as you will shorten their life.

Julf

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Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
« Reply #105 on: 2 Feb 2015, 07:50 am »
indeed. i don't listen to equipment unless it's played music for about 2 weeks, pretty much leave it on all the time when i leave the house. it probably has just as much to do with my ears adjusting to something "different".

in my case it was compounded by the fact i got the M22 and new speakers at the exact same time, and the combo definitely needed several hundred hours. initially i was quite underwhelmed. that has since changed and i think the combo phenomenal.

Yes, ears and speakers require time. Electronics only require a couple of hours.

OzarkTom

Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
« Reply #106 on: 2 Feb 2015, 10:04 am »
No, they don't, and it might not be a good idea to do so, as you will shorten their life.

According to my ears they do.

Julf

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Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
« Reply #107 on: 2 Feb 2015, 11:04 am »
According to my ears they do.

That is of course a statement that is not contestable (at least if we assume that the term "ears" covers the whole psychoperceptive system as well), but I just want to point out that a system that would last 40 years with a daily usage of 2 hours per day every day will last less than 4 years of 24/7. Of course, the expected lifetime is very much dependent on typical running temperatures too.



OzarkTom

Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
« Reply #108 on: 2 Feb 2015, 11:27 am »
That is of course a statement that is not contestable (at least if we assume that the term "ears" covers the whole psychoperceptive system as well), but I just want to point out that a system that would last 40 years with a daily usage of 2 hours per day every day will last less than 4 years of 24/7. Of course, the expected lifetime is very much dependent on typical running temperatures too.

Then I will go buy another one. :D

Julf

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Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
« Reply #109 on: 2 Feb 2015, 01:28 pm »
Then I will go buy another one. :D

And how long will they be available? For me that is a genuine concern - if one of the 4 ncores, or one of the smps's fail, will I be able to replace/repair it, or do I have to rebuild my whole system?

rollo

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Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
« Reply #110 on: 2 Feb 2015, 01:52 pm »
That is of course a statement that is not contestable (at least if we assume that the term "ears" covers the whole psychoperceptive system as well), but I just want to point out that a system that would last 40 years with a daily usage of 2 hours per day every day will last less than 4 years of 24/7. Of course, the expected lifetime is very much dependent on typical running temperatures too.

    Really, tell that to my amps who run 24/7 for 10 year or more of being on 24/7. Any SS device is not worth its weight if it cannot be on 24/7. Please explain to me what wears out ? 
    Break in  is a reality. It takes about 50 hours to burn in a path of least resistance of the conductors and then the forming of the caps. The dielectric  requires forming which takes depending on cap 200 hours or more to form.
      The key to break-in is the off time after playing. One wants to bring component up to temp and run for five hours then off for five hours. As a beta tester  that has been my experience which all of the manf's agree with.


charles

Julf

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Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
« Reply #111 on: 2 Feb 2015, 02:38 pm »
Please explain to me what wears out?

The first things to go seem to be the electrolytic capacitors in the smps.
 
Quote
Break in  is a reality. It takes about 50 hours to burn in a path of least resistance of the conductors and then the forming of the caps. The dielectric  requires forming which takes depending on cap 200 hours or more to form.

Any pointers to references?

rollo

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Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
« Reply #112 on: 2 Feb 2015, 02:44 pm »
The first things to go seem to be the electrolytic capacitors in the smps.
 
Any pointers to references?


    After about 10 years caps can fail with normal usage.  References ? Yes Over 50,000 hours of break-in experience and 45 years in audio.


charles

Julf

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Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
« Reply #113 on: 2 Feb 2015, 04:02 pm »
After about 10 years caps can fail with normal usage.

And is your "normal usage" 24/7 or a couple of hours per day?

rollo

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Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
« Reply #114 on: 2 Feb 2015, 05:00 pm »
And is your "normal usage" 24/7 or a couple of hours per day?

    The class "D" hybrid amps are on 24/7 [ tube section off ] CDP o [ tubed analog section off], phono stage power supply on 24/7, preamp [tubed] off. My listening is 5 hours or so a day. Dailey routine is turn off what is off. Let settle for 15 minutes then play for a hour to bring to operating temp. and then listen.
    Every month a demag disc is used to rid magnetic build up since most gear on 24/7. All connections are cleaned with Pro-Gold every 3 months. Try it and you may experience what I do. The difference can easily be heard. :thumb:


charles

Julf

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Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
« Reply #115 on: 2 Feb 2015, 05:14 pm »
    The class "D" hybrid amps are on 24/7 [ tube section off ] CDP o [ tubed analog section off], phono stage power supply on 24/7, preamp [tubed] off. My listening is 5 hours or so a day. Dailey routine is turn off what is off. Let settle for 15 minutes then play for a hour to bring to operating temp. and then listen.

So if you turned off everything, the electrolytics that  fail after 10 years would actually last 50 years?

Quote
Every month a demag disc is used to rid magnetic build up since most gear on 24/7.

I don't need to, as my equipment is aligned along ley lines. :)

a.wayne

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Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
« Reply #116 on: 2 Feb 2015, 07:43 pm »
Demag Disc .....?

lynhnn

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Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
« Reply #117 on: 2 Feb 2015, 07:47 pm »
How many hours are you putting on these amps? Many amps, especially SS, takes at least 200 hours to break-in and Class D amps needs to be left on 24 hours every day.

I am trying to get back the topic here ...
Once I replace the amp, I hear the differences. I leave the amp running for 5-10 days during my audition. The NAD M22 is a very clean sounding amp. It plays exceptionally well as a background music during conversations. We can hear beautiful music between passages. So the M22 plays well at low level to answer one person asked.

I don't believe an amp will drastically improve over continuos play like 200 hours or after break-in. I haven't seen so. For example, the Crown XLS 1500 will not sound any better than the NAD or the D-Sonic M3 regardless how many hours it is on. The XLS is not designed for hi-fi so it will not sound like hi-fi audio no matter how long. Beside, the manufacturer should make it good right out of the box so it can compete with others. Adding "sound much better after few hundreds hours" on the manual box only makes the buyers hang on to it and hope for the best to come :)

I agree that leave the amp on for 1 hour or so and it will perform better but it will reach its top form and not any better no matter how long it has been on ...


 

pablolie

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Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
« Reply #118 on: 2 Feb 2015, 08:01 pm »
always on vs on/off... one of the longest standing debates in audio.

in general i agree that heat is the enemy of components, so with amplifiers that build up higher temperatures it's probably best to turn them off for longevity. on the other hand, i left my Accuphase E-306v on for 14 years and it never had an issue. on the other hand i didn't hear much of a difference between it being on or off, my theory it's my ears that need warm-up when i finally chill in front of the music shrine. :-)

the M22 runs very cold in idle, so i'd be surprised if there's much thermal stress involved. again, there might be a slight performance difference between cold vs warmed up. initially i kept it on all the time because i wanted to put 200 hours of music on the new speakers asap, but now i have turned on the auto-standby feature. some claim that the process of turning a device on and off is more stressful that just leaving it on all of the time.

NAD doesn't provide an official recommendation with the M22. the Creek Destiny Power Amplifier came with the recommendation to turn it off, then again it did run quite hot.

lynhnn

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Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
« Reply #119 on: 2 Feb 2015, 08:25 pm »
but now i have turned on the auto-standby feature. some claim that the process of turning a device on and off is more stressful that just leaving it on all of the time.

Yes I love auto standby and turn on feature!